15. Power Dynamics in Corporate: Dr. Bob Wright on the Two-Way Glass Ceiling
Have you ever felt like no matter how hard you work, there's still an invisible barrier holding you back? What if I told you the biggest obstacle to your success isn't the system you're working in, but the way you see yourself within that system?
In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Bob Wright, a pioneer in psychology and leadership development, who’s here to help you bridge the gap between self-imposed limitations and external roadblocks. We dive deep into the psychology of what holds us back as women in leadership, and explore how to navigate the complicated dynamics that may be keeping you and others down.
Join us this week as Dr. Bob Wright and I unpack the two-way glass ceiling and show you how to break free by playing by a completely different set of rules. If you're tired of being held back by your own limiting beliefs or by others who see your potential as a threat, then this conversation will give you the tools to not only break through, but redefine what leadership looks like for yourself and those around you.
If you haven’t already, please follow the podcast and leave a rating and review to let me know what you think. I'm creating this show just for you, so I want to know what you would like to hear about in the coming episodes. Find complete instructions here!
What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
Why men in leadership positions can feel threatened by high-performing women, even if they have positional authority.
How women's unique gifts, like considering more variables and thinking ahead, can work against them if not communicated carefully.
The importance of understanding your own vulnerabilities and those of leaders above you in order to build trust and navigate complex power dynamics.
How to communicate difficult messages with respect and integrity to those in positions of authority.
The power of coaching to help you continually sort through layers of complexity as you rise in your career.
Why learning to see breaking the glass ceiling as a game you're mastering can help take the pressure off and make the process more enjoyable.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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If you haven’t already, please follow the podcast and leave a rating and review to let me know what you think. Find complete instructions here!
Dr. Bob Wright: Website
Full Episode Transcript:
What if I told you the biggest barrier to your success isn't the system you're working in, but the way you see yourself within that system? And what if breaking through that barrier didn't just mean shattering a glass ceiling above you, but dismantling the one holding you down from within. Today, we're going to unpack the two-way glass ceiling, the one that's been keeping women in leadership stuck for far too long.
Join us as we dive deep into the psychology of what holds us back, both from inside and out. And hear from Dr. Bob Wright, who's going to help us break free and play by a completely different set of rules. If you're tired of being held back by your own limiting beliefs or by others who see your potential as a threat, this episode is for you.
Welcome to The Balanced Leader, hosted by Yann Dang, a Leadership and Life Coach with over 20 years of corporate experience. Drawing from her journey as a former global finance leader and second-generation immigrant, Yann understands the unique challenges women face in male-dominated workplaces.
Each episode offers insights on balancing masculine and feminine energies, mastering soft skills, and building emotional intelligence. Join us to transform frustration into empowerment and unlock your authentic leadership potential.
Have you ever felt like no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you achieve, there's still an invisible barrier holding you back? Or maybe you've seen leaders around you keeping others, particularly strong women, just under the surface, never fully allowing them to rise. Welcome to today's episode.
I'm your host, Yann Dang, and today we're tackling the two-way glass ceiling, the one we create with our own limiting beliefs and the one leaders and authority positions can impose on us. We'll explore how you as a high-achieving woman can shatter the glass ceiling from within and how to navigate the complicated dynamics of leadership that may be keeping you and others down.
I'm thrilled to be joined by Dr. Bob Wright, a pioneer in psychology and leadership development, who's going to help us bridge the gap between self-imposed limitations and external roadblocks. If you're ready to learn how to step into your full potential, challenge the norms, and play by your own rules, then this episode is for you.
So whether you're in the boardroom, leading teams, or navigating the complexities of corporate life, this conversation will give you the tools to not only break through, but to redefine what leadership looks like for yourself and for those around you. Let's dive in.
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Yann Dang: Hi, Bob, how are you?
Bob Wright: I'm great, really looking forward to this conversation.
Yann Dang: Ditto, so I also wanted to share, Bob has coached me in the past and I was - one of the things that I really loved that you coached me on which really relates to this two-way glass ceiling is recognizing the immigrant story that I have. I think when you met me, I did a lot of kind of just head down, get my work done, get through things, survive, and make a difference and be in service.
But I had not really seen how being an immigrant or even taking on that story for myself was impacting the way that I show up. So I just wanted to bring that into this too. But I wanted to get from your thoughts of like when you think about the two-way glass ceiling, you know, what are those dynamics that come to mind for you? And I want to circle back to this immigrant piece too.
Bob Wright: What I love about this two-way glass ceiling conversation is we have people holding the glass ceiling up from below. And we have people from above holding the glass ceiling. And so we're looking at shattering that ceiling so that people can get up. And what you just brought in is yet another limiting belief about being an immigrant and being someone of color. And so we're talking about the ways that you used to because you did a lot of work really, you know, asserting yourself and moving through that glass ceiling and earning very significant respect from the heads of your organizations.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I think when I'm reflecting on this two-way glass ceiling, I think oftentimes what we're hearing in the environment and the world is that there's a glass ceiling and really people think about it as one way, as just a, you know, leaders holding people down. But when I got into coaching, especially with you and taking personal responsibility, I had not been aware of the ways that I was also holding up the glass ceiling for myself.
And I think it's something that a lot of women, especially if they are the only one, if they're the only woman in the room, if they're the only person of color, they often, or the youngest, right? I also was like the youngest person in the room. So I oftentimes felt like, okay, I just need to like do my job, stay under the radar.
I don't want to stand out too much, right? And I don't want to seem too powerful. And there's a safety in that. So how do you talk to people about that? Because you're trying to be safe, but at the same time, you want to expand and grow and like break through that.
Bob Wright: Well, I think we've got an opportunity with the complexity of what you had to deal with. Because as a CFO, you had responsibility to identify limits in spending. You had responsibility to stay on top of all of the finances of your division. And it was a very, very tough job. And it required that you become assertive.
It required that you win the trust of the people who wanted to spend the money when you were talking about setting limits on that money and getting other people to own those limits. So you had a lot of very complex elements that you were dealing with that all had an internal breakthrough for you.
Yann Dang: Yeah, and I'm hearing you say that trust, right? Because I think oftentimes women that are high achievers and they're technically experienced, and this is how I felt before I did my deeper work. I was like, well, I have the authority. I can tell them what the limits are, or I can at least discuss that with them, or I can share with them the answer. But, you know, the piece that I work with women on, and I think that the beauty of what you're coaching on is that it's a relationship game, not a, you know, I know this, or this technical expertise wins out, which I think is part of like what we've been fed, right?
If we know the answers, we should clearly be the most competent people in the room. But really, it's like if we're able to create that connection, that trust with other people, which requires a whole different set of skills.
Bob Wright: Well, and the set of skills for you included not threatening men. So you did have, and the higher you got in the corporation, the more power, control, and authority you had, and the more potentially threatening you were. And the more you actually worked to help the men feel comfortable, to know that you were there to empower them. And given that you were both limiting and empowering people, it was a very, very complex job for you.
Yann Dang: Yeah. I mean, and that was just a different way of looking at the two-way ceiling. I think that one of the coachings that you gave me in the past around me working with different people was that I needed to find out how I was threatening and help dismantle that. And I was really annoyed. I was like, why do I have to do that?
They're the leaders. Like, why can't they take responsibility for that? But I'd love for you to share more about that because I think this is what a lot of women face when they're at this pivot point in their career, where they've been really great performers, but now they're up for that next level and they are becoming more threatening and people are starting to act a little bit strange around them or to hide information from them.
Bob Wright: Well, let’s bookmark the underside of the two-way glass ceiling and go and take a look above and assume we’re dealing with men who are on the other side of the glass ceiling for right now.
Yann Dang: Which for the most part, it's a lot of, right? Like I always tell women, if you're surrounded by a bunch of men, you have made it in leadership, right? I mean, that's the way the society looks for the most part at this point. And it's an opportunity versus a, you know, terrible thing.
Bob Wright: Well, and you were saying, why should I have to do this? Well, here's why. As men, we are way less secure in our identity than women. That is a very tough one for people to understand. So let's step back.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I'm even noticing myself being like, Bob, what are you talking about? The world is run by men. I even still feel this way of like, what? It's harder for men, especially in the corporate world? You know, why is that the case?
Bob Wright: Well, if you don't understand that our identity is less secure than yours, then you won't understand why you need to deal with my insecurity.
Yann Dang: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, you should be the most secure. You have the men surrounding you. You, you know, are in that authority position.
Bob Wright: Well, let's go back to the womb. So men and women, we're all in this lovely, warm, ambiotic, warm, you know, environment. Then we're born and suddenly it's cold and we are beginning to become a separate being. And we immediately, this is where Freud really had it right. We immediately look at, and what he said was the first object that we think about is the breast.
Well, that's mother in general, or primary caretaker, or whoever's got the bottle. And then we identify with the source of that nourishment, which is the person. So you look at the mother, let's assume it very simplistically, and you say, oh that's me, I'm gonna be that when I grow up. I look at the mother and I say, oh that's me, I'm gonna be that when I grow up.
Well, as a man, that is an issue. When we understand male development, male development is earned, it's developed. We don't have a continuous line that we're following from pre-birth to becoming adults. You had that. You could look at a mother and say that. That gives you a security of identity that I don't have as a man. And that's also why we see so much homophobia in men. It's threatening to identify with that feminine self.
Yann Dang: Wow. Okay. So you're like taking this way back to the developmental, because I think in a lot of women's brains, they're like, of course men are gonna feel more secure. They've been running these companies and the corporate world is, you know, you could say is very patriarchal, very masculine, owned by men.
But what you're trying to say is actually men are like earning their, you know, part of their going out to provide and be strong and to do all of these things is because they don't have this innate natural ability to nurture, to give nourishment to people, which is really interesting because a lot of like senior level women or even myself, I wouldn't identify, you know, just like, oh, cause I'm a mom or I'm a woman, I'm secure in like society, right? Sometimes your thought is it's weaker to be a woman. You have so many more vulnerabilities. Being a pregnant woman is very vulnerable and very exposing, not powerful, but in some ways it is powerful. You have a unique place in society that people just value.
It may be like most societies where they actually value women. They're like, oh, this pregnant woman, we should protect her, or she has an importance that's, you know, beyond kind of just day to day. Am I thinking about that right?
Bob Wright: There's no right or wrong in it, but that's an experience that we men aren't going to have of the vulnerability of carrying another life inside of us. But let's just take a look at what looks like authority. We may have positional authority. I may be your boss, but just because I'm your boss does not mean that my sense of self is more secure than yours. You naturally grow into being a mother.
It's a continuity. You had a mother, you look at your mother, you say, I'm gonna be like my mother, you get pregnant, and that's gonna be fine. And you're gonna be, you know, the mother.
Yann Dang: But is that true for women who even choose to not have kids?
Bob Wright: Same, same, same.
Yann Dang: Got it, I just wanna make sure for the listeners that they're not thinking, oh, well I don't have, you know, a child, or I haven't been pregnant. Does that still relate to me?
Bob Wright: Well, we're not accustomed to thinking about identity, but it's the identity that is threatened. And with a high-performing woman coming up under the glass, I'm threatened. I'm threatened. I don't know why I'm threatened. I don't know I'm threatened.
I may have a position of authority and you as a woman may not understand how threatened I am, but I am. That's why you got so mad at me when I told you about managing men and reassuring them that you're there to make them win.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I was like, aren't they supposed to be there for me? Like, why do they need more? They're already in the position of power.
Bob Wright: We are insecure. And just because we have the position doesn't mean we are not threatened by you as a high performer?
Yann Dang: Yeah, and as I reflect on that feedback, and as I took in that, digested that feedback, it felt much more empowering to know that even as a threat, there are things that I could do about that. And there are ways that I could empower myself and that it's, you know, it's not bad or wrong to be threatening. It's just more of how to navigate that piece.
Bob Wright: So now we've got male identity. Let's go under the glass ceiling again And look at how women are their own worst enemy, where their very gifts are the things that hurt them. Because women are able to deal with way more variables than we men can deal with. We're pretty linear in how we look at things, and women tend to be more circular.
So underneath the glass ceiling, you see way more than I see above the glass ceiling, right? You see more, you consider more. In some ways, you're gathering data I don't have, which could be threatening if I'm not secure enough to listen to you in terms of how you're thinking about what's going on.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I actually just gave coaching to somebody this past week about how her way of having so many scenarios and thinking through things is actually really scary for her boss because he can't follow. He is like way 10 steps ahead of him. And he just feels like she's getting out of her lane. She's doing too many things, right? He's just feeling the threat of it.
And what we were working on was, hey, listen, you have the skill set. And as women, I noticed this too, Bob. I actually remember when I was with some senior leaders and I was like, whoa, I am like thinking five steps ahead. And I wasn't doing it in a superior way. I just, it helped me be like, I need to slow down and take them with me. But it did give me that view of like, wow, my brain thinks very differently. And how can I use this with them?
Bob Wright: Well, there's two things there. One is you have a very good computer that allows you to think five steps ahead. But your database with which you are dealing is horizontally very broad, and it's vertically hot. So if you can see vertically more things in the future than I can see, then you need to be pretty gentle with me to help me think with you and join you.
That's part of managing up and harvesting your gifts as a woman, short to her thinking, multiple variables, anticipation way better. See, our anticipation tends to be out of fear. You anticipate more out of developing, supporting, looking at requirements.
Yann Dang: Yeah, and then I guess there is that piece of it, but I've also noticed when women are leading with that, like how they want to help and harvest and do all of those things, then men get, again, scared about not reaching the goal. And so you see that, I mean, oftentimes I'm coaching women of like, how do you make this a win-win for both people? Because, you know, they're protecting the investors or the stakeholders, and they need to be able to bring that data together in a way that both, right, is about the expansiveness, but also whatever short-term thing that might be scary for them or, you know, on pressure for them.
Bob Wright: Well, now you're hitting both sides of the glass ceiling. You're beginning to understand what I'm dealing with above. You are filling in my universe where you're able to understand what's going on with me. And we're now having you underneath the glass ceiling, but we're having you get through the glass ceiling with empathy and understanding. And that doesn't mean you have to be an ass kiss.
Yann Dang: I think that's what a lot of women, their fear of is like, am I a sellout? Do I have to like undermine myself? Do I, you know, make myself dumb to make somebody else feel better. Like there's just like this internal dialogue of like, if I have to be somebody else that feels inauthentic to me, is that who I want to be? But I think that there's a different game that you can play. There's not a all or nothing. And what I learned through coaching, why I feel so passionate about it, is that there is a different way to look at it.
Bob Wright: One of the most difficult things is to understand the gifts that you have. And that other people, whether they're men or women, don't necessarily have the same gifts that you have. And so they may be threatened by your gifts and your perspective. So any responsible communication requires that you to do that. But let's back up a little bit.
If you kiss my butt, you've just stepped into a position of disrespect. The challenge is to be self-respecting and to reassure me without selling yourself out. That's what you're pointing at. Is how do you reassure me that you really want the win for me? That may include understanding my career aspiration.
That may include understanding my binds in things. And so being at that middle point of self-respect without overblowing or undershowing, that's kind of cute, no overblowing, no undershowing, This even peer-to-peer level while I'm letting somebody realize I know you're my boss, I know you're superior, and I'm dedicated to you winning. So that's the critical thing to keep in mind. I am dedicated to you winning from my position so that you will allow the glass not necessarily to shatter, but to become permeable, which is what you did, Yann.
Yann Dang: This is just an interesting point because I know one of the things you're talking about is mutuality, right? Like I think people have this difficulty of, how can I be mutual with someone if they're senior to me? And I was like, well, there's things that you bring to the table, there's things that they want from you, right? There's things you want from them. And what I'm hearing is that if I am clear and I'm self-respecting, I could still be self-respecting, clear with myself, mutual with them, at the same time respect that they are an authority, respect that they have an agenda, and also be okay to align with that agenda while also helping myself.
Bob Wright: Amen. Amen. And we're in a pretty complex territory now because when people get a chance to meet somebody who's several levels above them in an organization, what they tell is think about what you'd want. No, don't think about what you'd want. Try and envision what that other person is facing.
And one of the things that I coach people to do is to at least find the five major challenges the person is facing. What are the major challenges that person is facing that they would acknowledge which means I need to say Well help me understand where you're coming from with what we're doing here. And I'm not going to be presumptuous and say our partnership our relationship so that I can really support you. If I say the word partnership, it could be threatening.
Yann Dang: Okay, got it. Because that's like almost saying, oh, we're mutual already.
Bob Wright: It's too presumptive.
Yann Dang: Okay, got it. So yeah, so this context and this like using precise language, not that we have to be perfect with it, but understanding, you know, the assumptions beneath what we're saying. Because I think even in some of those complex conversations, right, with those authority figures, if you're not clear, you know, on being open and asking from a place of goodwill, It could feel or seem manipulative or trying to position yourself or like you said, ass kissing, right?
Bob Wright: Or presumptuous. In which case I need to say, I understand that this isn't really my place, but if I can understand what you see on your plate that you're facing better, I will be better able to support you in dealing with it.
Yann Dang: Okay. So it's like you're taking on and letting them know what being transparent about what it is for you and how you want to support them.
Bob Wright: Yep, that is my primary agenda. As long as you are an integrous human being who's working for the purpose of the company and the goals of the company to the best of your ability, I will respect and support you. If you are a disintegrous human being and I find you operating in self-interest, I still need to not threaten you. However, I now have a bind because my responsibility is the purpose and the goals of the corporation and not your petty fiefdom. Now we have a really complex situation to deal with now, which we should probably put on to another conversation.
Yann Dang: Yeah, but I think one of the key things around, if I bring it back to this two-way glass ceiling, is recognizing the vulnerabilities of authority figures and leaders, which I think a lot of times people are like, what do they have to be vulnerable of? And oftentimes from a financial standpoint, it was easy for me to see. I'm like, they're telling somebody that they're gonna make some money or they're gonna deliver some profit. And if they don't, there's a lot of pressure on them. And that pressure feels and looks like people's livelihoods.
There's a real pressure and responsibility. And I think oftentimes, maybe it just feels easier for people to not think about that, or maybe just because they're so focused on their own, you know, game that they are not thinking about the vulnerabilities or the pressures being put on their leaders. What is the psychology around that or how should we think about that?
Bob Wright: Well, I'm thinking of an example. One of the larger corporations we worked for was being run by the number two in command in the Navy submarine warfare to Admiral Rickover in World War II. And he was a really tough, tough leader. And he drove everybody really hard. And if you looked at him, you'd go, wow, this guy's really secure.
Well, when you think about it, driving people kind of hard keeps people on the defensive, doesn't it? Now, if you knew what was really going on with this guy, he would go home. His wife would make him take his shoes off when he came in the house, and he was totally afraid of his wife. So we have a man who was nowhere near as secure as he appears on the surface, who has got a very superficial surface. And people learned around him that they needed to be careful with him.
The first time we got to be in a meeting with him, they told us in the first five minutes, his secretary is going to come in and give you a note that he needs to leave. Five minutes, she comes in and gives him a note. But we had already addressed the fact that everybody was afraid of him. We got to keep in that meeting. He was very, very interested to hear how people experienced him.
He was very, very interested to hear because we weren't afraid of him. But he was very, very interested to hear what we had to say. But we ended up with a 45-minute meeting that was supposed to only be five on his schedule.
Yann Dang: Okay. So he was open to hearing a different perspective.
Bob Wright: We were courageous enough to say, are you aware that your staff's not telling you the truth? They were in very heavy pursuit to acquire major corporations. And this is the kind of acquisition where they would spend two, three months just doing like 20 MBAs doing due diligence on a major corporation they were acquiring or looking to acquire.
And too often, he wasn't getting the data he needed to make the decisions that needed to be made. And we were in a position to be able to see that because we were doing their employee assistance and or managed care for the firms.
Yann Dang: So I bring this back to the glass ceiling. He's holding up this glass ceiling, you know, major because he feels scared really underneath it, but it's coming out as anger and people underneath the ceiling are feeling fearful.
Bob Wright: And that dishonesty maintains the glass ceiling because it's only with truth and focusing on the corporate purpose and the corporate goals and the win of the corporate goals that's going to get you up above that ceiling. And so we need to understand who's on the other side of the ceiling and how we're going to make a communication. We were tangential to it, but we were able to deliver the data that he needed. By the way, they did make the next acquisition. They had walked away from a number and they bought a major company for 10 cents on the dollar. Amazing deal.
Yann Dang: Yeah. Okay. And so if there's somebody, right? If there's like a woman in that organization that works for this man, is the way, and I know there's no right or wrong, but is the way to be able to break through that glass ceiling or make it impermeable, as you say, is it to create that trust and rapport with that person through understanding what their major challenges are?
Bob Wright: Well, I'm a little stuck on this example because there was a woman who needed to be protected. But as a woman is to understand your vulnerability, their vulnerability. It's a complex, you know, set of communications. And a lot of times we need to ask permission because when you're going above the glass ceiling, it's always useful to say, no, I'd really like permission to say something that's not really out of my position, but I believe it may be useful. It's not ass kissing, that's simply respectful.
Yann Dang: Yes. I think that's the buy-in that you get from someone else. I remember I have a boss who I had a lot of coaching through because he, on the outside, was very angry, was very scary for people. As I got to know him, I realized he actually truly cares about the company and the people. It doesn't seem like it.
I remember, and I might have been coaching from you, I had asked him when we were just together after a series of meetings, I said, do you mind if I give you feedback on your leadership style? And of course, I'd been working with him for about two years and gained a lot of his trust. And he's like, yes, please tell me. And I said, you scare people. You scare them so much that they are not focused on doing the right thing for the company, they want to please you.
And he had said, but you know, my bark is bigger than my bite. And I'm like, I know that, but all of the people that you connect with don't know that. And for me, it was a big step into that mutuality, but also into him being honestly wanting to hear what I had to say.
Bob Wright: Understanding that you want the best for him and the company. So if we can juggle the purpose of the company, the goals of the company, and the well-being of the person to whom we're talking, then we start finding that it turns into a less hard and more permeable ceiling.
Yann Dang: It is complex though. There's a lot, you know, for just the individual to notice that dynamics and those complexities. And there's the bigger company, and then there's the well-being of your boss, the vulnerability of that person, and what's on their plate. And also having the respect and asking them for the buy-in and not being presumptuous.
Bob Wright: And just think about the enormous amount of data you had, that you had to digest and put it in a digestible form for him.
Yann Dang: Okay, well that's a lot, but I guess if we are trying to, if somebody's new to this and they're like, okay, I want to start taking ownership over this two-way glass ceiling, you know, or at least start being aware of it. What are some things that you would have that person start looking at or thinking about?
Bob Wright: Well, what I'm working on right now is actually understanding that a woman's gifts often work against her because she can see so many variables and that there is an extra job of sorting through those variables, what is going to be most digestible above glass, and to have more empathy for yourself, and to give yourself more room to find the mentors who help you sort this out.
And don't assume just because another executive is a woman that she's not going to undercut you because there are way too many women that think another woman is really behind them. And there are a lot of women executives that are very good at acting like they're supportive, but they are just as threatened as some of the men, or more so.
Yann Dang: So another complexity. But what I'm hearing here is that there's also a lot of room for us to be human, to notice that these leaders in their authority positions, whether they're men or women, have vulnerabilities, have fears, are insecure, and we can have understanding for that and we can have empathy for ourselves trying to navigate this very complex world that is within us and outside of us.
Bob Wright: And one very simple way to think about it is the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Yann Dang: That makes things more simple. I'm seeing that by actually taking responsibility for the parts of the glass ceiling that women can empower themselves and they're capable of bridging, right? It seems more like I think is the connotation oftentimes around a glass ceiling is that it's gonna be - I mean It is complex and it is hard, but it's not impossible.
Bob Wright: And there are moments of truth. I think this is a different conversation. There are points at which the situation may be unworkable, but until you've really used coaching and really worked on your own learning and growing, done everything you can do, keep looking at how you can be more effective, totally focused on the corporate purpose and goals, and always communicating with that in mind and the vulnerability of the other person.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so bringing it back to that corporate purpose and having that be the lead, right? Because that's what I find really helpful about bringing it back to them is it takes me out of my own ego and my own agenda and my own questioning of like, you know, how am I positioning myself and that sort of political manipulative game.
And it takes me back to, actually, what is best for the company? And that clarity and that trust, even in myself as a leader, and helping other people to see like, hey, I think this is what's best for the company, helps me to be more convicted, more grounded, and to have it, it's like not so personal because it's not about me, it's about the company.
Bob Wright: Yep. And there are times where integrity is going to require a very audacious move. I was coaching somebody whose company was owned by another company, a very big-name corporation. And all of the representatives of the owning company were at a meeting and there were some very serious strategic issues being discussed. And the person I was coaching was a guy, so it's a different issue.
But he had been talking to the rest of his boss and his boss's boss, he was three levels down in the meeting, that the strategy that they were going with was going to be a failed strategy. So he had an integrity issue because his boss is putting out a strategy that he's pretty sure is going to be a failed strategy. So now what do you do? You've got an integrity issue.
I think that's one we should let people kind of noodle on and maybe discuss how that came out another time. But women oftentimes sense the integrity issues more fully than others because integrity means wholeness and a woman's capacity to see the whole is so much greater than ours as men.
And oftentimes women are in a bind about what to say when and how to say it when they sense something profoundly disturbing, but we still have responsibilities as communicators to get that across, to be able to say something that's very, very difficult. And how do we do it with all the respect we've been discussing? And I'm always invoking corporate purpose, invoking corporate goals, invoking the sensitivity of everyone involved to perhaps consider this possibility. And then we learn to speak a little more carefully, but not diminishing our self-respect.
Yann Dang: That is a way of thinking about like using the glass ceiling, but also being mindful of it and navigating it for yourself, right? That invoking that company purpose and goal. Because I think what you're saying about the integrity, a lot of the women that I coach, a lot of high-achieving women, they notice, like they notice something feels off, something doesn't seem right. But then it's like, do I wanna be the person to deliver the message, right? There's that fearful negative connotation, which because it is complex, right?
And you can't just go and say, listen, this is what I think, because there's that presumption or there's like not enough context that's created or not enough buy-in, and that it could put you at risk and you're vulnerable to, you know, being the messenger.
Bob Wright: And you don't want to be the messenger that gets shot, which means that timing becomes a variable. Is this the moment when this message should be delivered, or is it something I'm noticing bouncing around the fringes, earning its way into the conversation? So we're now at a very complex level of how do I begin to communicate the other side of the glass ceiling?
Yann Dang: Well, this is great. I mean, this is really helpful in terms of, number one, the complexity of being a woman in the corporate world, of being noticing and being aware that our brains think differently. We are thinking about a lot of different scenarios and we're also more in touch with when things feel off or not. But with that is the responsibility to get clear with ourselves, to get clear with the corporate goals and to figure out the right timing, the right words, or the right messaging to be able to deliver that message in an impactful way with mutuality, self-respect, and honoring the systems that are in place or honoring the authority structures in place.
Bob Wright: I think you just pulled it together.
Yann Dang: Well, I think this is a good one for listeners to listen to again and again to really unpack this piece. But I do see this even, you know, in my own journey in the corporate world as being very powerful and a defining moment in a lot of women's careers, right? They're either going to say, screw the politics, screw the navigating all of this. I want to work somewhere where I'm put in the power position. But here's the thing, right?
Wherever you go, there's going to be another ceiling. Whether it's the boardroom or the stockholders or whoever, right? There's always going to be another level of this dynamic. The more you take it on, the more you understand the dynamic. The more you empower yourself to navigate these glass ceilings, the more impactful you'll be, the more satisfied you'll be, I think is what we're playing at. And the more empathy you'll have for yourself and the people and the players of this system.
Bob Wright: I love it.
Yann Dang: Well, this is so great, Dr. Bob. Thank you so much for joining today and for sharing your wisdom and your experience and the psychology around this. I think it's so much more complex than, you know, the taglines that we see around, you know, glass ceiling shattering it. And when I see things out in the world about the glass ceiling, It's almost like they make it so simplistic, right?
Like, just do this or just do that. And it's like, it's not. If it was that easy, this wouldn't be an issue. This wouldn't be something that we all grapple with as humans in the world. So I appreciate the conversation.
Bob Wright: You may want to actually call this melting the glass ceiling.
Yann Dang: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very different, right? It's that we're able to permeate it, do something different than it's just, it's not this just black and white, like, or just all or nothing, like, it's either there or not there. And you know, to my other point, there's always going to be different levels of the ceiling because there's different levels of power dynamics that are always playing out for all of us, wherever you are, however powerful you are, right? Even if you're the president, right?
Like there's always gonna be different things. There's never the end, you know? So it's circular. See, my brain's already going to my circular manner of how this fits, just playing out in the world.
Bob Wright: It's the gift, and we don't want the gifts to work against you.
Yann Dang: Yes, all right. Well, thank you so much. Any final words for you for high-achieving women out there that are wanting to bridge their gap between technical expertise and emotional intelligence? Anything else that...
Bob Wright: Well, I think learning how to use coaching, because none of these things is an easy solution, and really empowering your coach, and really keeping your coach informed, and be willing to not know, and be willing to understand that sorting these things out can take a very long time, that there are many layers. Things become more and more evident with each move you make. So don't think it's going to be one move and done. Be prepared to keep working it with your coach. Be prepared to keep sorting, to discover new elements of the situation and be accepting that complexity that you're capable of seeing.
Yann Dang: Thank you. And I'm going to bring on one thing. You know, after you would coach me, you would tell me two words. You would always tell me to have fun. So while we're doing all this heavy stuff, learning all this stuff, why is that important?
Bob Wright: Well, because we don't want things to be life or death. We don't want things to be now or never. We want things to be a game that we're learning to play more and more effectively because we like to be effective.
Yann Dang: Well, thanks so much for being on the show. And I look forward to having you on again. I think, well, you know, I want to hear from the listeners what they took, what more they want to hear about, and we'd love to have you back here. But thank you so much.
Bob Wright: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yann Dang: You're welcome.
Thank you for being a part of The Balanced Leader community. We hope you found today's episode inspiring and actionable. For more resources and to connect with Yann, visit us at aspire-coaching.co. Until next time, keep leading with confidence and purpose.
Join us as we dive deep into the psychology of what holds us back, both from inside and out. And hear from Dr. Bob Wright, who's going to help us break free and play by a completely different set of rules. If you're tired of being held back by your own limiting beliefs or by others who see your potential as a threat, this episode is for you.
Welcome to The Balanced Leader, hosted by Yann Dang, a Leadership and Life Coach with over 20 years of corporate experience. Drawing from her journey as a former global finance leader and second-generation immigrant, Yann understands the unique challenges women face in male-dominated workplaces.
Each episode offers insights on balancing masculine and feminine energies, mastering soft skills, and building emotional intelligence. Join us to transform frustration into empowerment and unlock your authentic leadership potential.
Have you ever felt like no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you achieve, there's still an invisible barrier holding you back? Or maybe you've seen leaders around you keeping others, particularly strong women, just under the surface, never fully allowing them to rise. Welcome to today's episode.
I'm your host, Yann Dang, and today we're tackling the two-way glass ceiling, the one we create with our own limiting beliefs and the one leaders and authority positions can impose on us. We'll explore how you as a high-achieving woman can shatter the glass ceiling from within and how to navigate the complicated dynamics of leadership that may be keeping you and others down.
I'm thrilled to be joined by Dr. Bob Wright, a pioneer in psychology and leadership development, who's going to help us bridge the gap between self-imposed limitations and external roadblocks. If you're ready to learn how to step into your full potential, challenge the norms, and play by your own rules, then this episode is for you.
So whether you're in the boardroom, leading teams, or navigating the complexities of corporate life, this conversation will give you the tools to not only break through, but to redefine what leadership looks like for yourself and for those around you. Let's dive in.
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Yann Dang: Hi, Bob, how are you?
Bob Wright: I'm great, really looking forward to this conversation.
Yann Dang: Ditto, so I also wanted to share, Bob has coached me in the past and I was - one of the things that I really loved that you coached me on which really relates to this two-way glass ceiling is recognizing the immigrant story that I have. I think when you met me, I did a lot of kind of just head down, get my work done, get through things, survive, and make a difference and be in service.
But I had not really seen how being an immigrant or even taking on that story for myself was impacting the way that I show up. So I just wanted to bring that into this too. But I wanted to get from your thoughts of like when you think about the two-way glass ceiling, you know, what are those dynamics that come to mind for you? And I want to circle back to this immigrant piece too.
Bob Wright: What I love about this two-way glass ceiling conversation is we have people holding the glass ceiling up from below. And we have people from above holding the glass ceiling. And so we're looking at shattering that ceiling so that people can get up. And what you just brought in is yet another limiting belief about being an immigrant and being someone of color. And so we're talking about the ways that you used to because you did a lot of work really, you know, asserting yourself and moving through that glass ceiling and earning very significant respect from the heads of your organizations.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I think when I'm reflecting on this two-way glass ceiling, I think oftentimes what we're hearing in the environment and the world is that there's a glass ceiling and really people think about it as one way, as just a, you know, leaders holding people down. But when I got into coaching, especially with you and taking personal responsibility, I had not been aware of the ways that I was also holding up the glass ceiling for myself.
And I think it's something that a lot of women, especially if they are the only one, if they're the only woman in the room, if they're the only person of color, they often, or the youngest, right? I also was like the youngest person in the room. So I oftentimes felt like, okay, I just need to like do my job, stay under the radar.
I don't want to stand out too much, right? And I don't want to seem too powerful. And there's a safety in that. So how do you talk to people about that? Because you're trying to be safe, but at the same time, you want to expand and grow and like break through that.
Bob Wright: Well, I think we've got an opportunity with the complexity of what you had to deal with. Because as a CFO, you had responsibility to identify limits in spending. You had responsibility to stay on top of all of the finances of your division. And it was a very, very tough job. And it required that you become assertive.
It required that you win the trust of the people who wanted to spend the money when you were talking about setting limits on that money and getting other people to own those limits. So you had a lot of very complex elements that you were dealing with that all had an internal breakthrough for you.
Yann Dang: Yeah, and I'm hearing you say that trust, right? Because I think oftentimes women that are high achievers and they're technically experienced, and this is how I felt before I did my deeper work. I was like, well, I have the authority. I can tell them what the limits are, or I can at least discuss that with them, or I can share with them the answer. But, you know, the piece that I work with women on, and I think that the beauty of what you're coaching on is that it's a relationship game, not a, you know, I know this, or this technical expertise wins out, which I think is part of like what we've been fed, right?
If we know the answers, we should clearly be the most competent people in the room. But really, it's like if we're able to create that connection, that trust with other people, which requires a whole different set of skills.
Bob Wright: Well, and the set of skills for you included not threatening men. So you did have, and the higher you got in the corporation, the more power, control, and authority you had, and the more potentially threatening you were. And the more you actually worked to help the men feel comfortable, to know that you were there to empower them. And given that you were both limiting and empowering people, it was a very, very complex job for you.
Yann Dang: Yeah. I mean, and that was just a different way of looking at the two-way ceiling. I think that one of the coachings that you gave me in the past around me working with different people was that I needed to find out how I was threatening and help dismantle that. And I was really annoyed. I was like, why do I have to do that?
They're the leaders. Like, why can't they take responsibility for that? But I'd love for you to share more about that because I think this is what a lot of women face when they're at this pivot point in their career, where they've been really great performers, but now they're up for that next level and they are becoming more threatening and people are starting to act a little bit strange around them or to hide information from them.
Bob Wright: Well, let’s bookmark the underside of the two-way glass ceiling and go and take a look above and assume we’re dealing with men who are on the other side of the glass ceiling for right now.
Yann Dang: Which for the most part, it's a lot of, right? Like I always tell women, if you're surrounded by a bunch of men, you have made it in leadership, right? I mean, that's the way the society looks for the most part at this point. And it's an opportunity versus a, you know, terrible thing.
Bob Wright: Well, and you were saying, why should I have to do this? Well, here's why. As men, we are way less secure in our identity than women. That is a very tough one for people to understand. So let's step back.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I'm even noticing myself being like, Bob, what are you talking about? The world is run by men. I even still feel this way of like, what? It's harder for men, especially in the corporate world? You know, why is that the case?
Bob Wright: Well, if you don't understand that our identity is less secure than yours, then you won't understand why you need to deal with my insecurity.
Yann Dang: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, you should be the most secure. You have the men surrounding you. You, you know, are in that authority position.
Bob Wright: Well, let's go back to the womb. So men and women, we're all in this lovely, warm, ambiotic, warm, you know, environment. Then we're born and suddenly it's cold and we are beginning to become a separate being. And we immediately, this is where Freud really had it right. We immediately look at, and what he said was the first object that we think about is the breast.
Well, that's mother in general, or primary caretaker, or whoever's got the bottle. And then we identify with the source of that nourishment, which is the person. So you look at the mother, let's assume it very simplistically, and you say, oh that's me, I'm gonna be that when I grow up. I look at the mother and I say, oh that's me, I'm gonna be that when I grow up.
Well, as a man, that is an issue. When we understand male development, male development is earned, it's developed. We don't have a continuous line that we're following from pre-birth to becoming adults. You had that. You could look at a mother and say that. That gives you a security of identity that I don't have as a man. And that's also why we see so much homophobia in men. It's threatening to identify with that feminine self.
Yann Dang: Wow. Okay. So you're like taking this way back to the developmental, because I think in a lot of women's brains, they're like, of course men are gonna feel more secure. They've been running these companies and the corporate world is, you know, you could say is very patriarchal, very masculine, owned by men.
But what you're trying to say is actually men are like earning their, you know, part of their going out to provide and be strong and to do all of these things is because they don't have this innate natural ability to nurture, to give nourishment to people, which is really interesting because a lot of like senior level women or even myself, I wouldn't identify, you know, just like, oh, cause I'm a mom or I'm a woman, I'm secure in like society, right? Sometimes your thought is it's weaker to be a woman. You have so many more vulnerabilities. Being a pregnant woman is very vulnerable and very exposing, not powerful, but in some ways it is powerful. You have a unique place in society that people just value.
It may be like most societies where they actually value women. They're like, oh, this pregnant woman, we should protect her, or she has an importance that's, you know, beyond kind of just day to day. Am I thinking about that right?
Bob Wright: There's no right or wrong in it, but that's an experience that we men aren't going to have of the vulnerability of carrying another life inside of us. But let's just take a look at what looks like authority. We may have positional authority. I may be your boss, but just because I'm your boss does not mean that my sense of self is more secure than yours. You naturally grow into being a mother.
It's a continuity. You had a mother, you look at your mother, you say, I'm gonna be like my mother, you get pregnant, and that's gonna be fine. And you're gonna be, you know, the mother.
Yann Dang: But is that true for women who even choose to not have kids?
Bob Wright: Same, same, same.
Yann Dang: Got it, I just wanna make sure for the listeners that they're not thinking, oh, well I don't have, you know, a child, or I haven't been pregnant. Does that still relate to me?
Bob Wright: Well, we're not accustomed to thinking about identity, but it's the identity that is threatened. And with a high-performing woman coming up under the glass, I'm threatened. I'm threatened. I don't know why I'm threatened. I don't know I'm threatened.
I may have a position of authority and you as a woman may not understand how threatened I am, but I am. That's why you got so mad at me when I told you about managing men and reassuring them that you're there to make them win.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I was like, aren't they supposed to be there for me? Like, why do they need more? They're already in the position of power.
Bob Wright: We are insecure. And just because we have the position doesn't mean we are not threatened by you as a high performer?
Yann Dang: Yeah, and as I reflect on that feedback, and as I took in that, digested that feedback, it felt much more empowering to know that even as a threat, there are things that I could do about that. And there are ways that I could empower myself and that it's, you know, it's not bad or wrong to be threatening. It's just more of how to navigate that piece.
Bob Wright: So now we've got male identity. Let's go under the glass ceiling again And look at how women are their own worst enemy, where their very gifts are the things that hurt them. Because women are able to deal with way more variables than we men can deal with. We're pretty linear in how we look at things, and women tend to be more circular.
So underneath the glass ceiling, you see way more than I see above the glass ceiling, right? You see more, you consider more. In some ways, you're gathering data I don't have, which could be threatening if I'm not secure enough to listen to you in terms of how you're thinking about what's going on.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I actually just gave coaching to somebody this past week about how her way of having so many scenarios and thinking through things is actually really scary for her boss because he can't follow. He is like way 10 steps ahead of him. And he just feels like she's getting out of her lane. She's doing too many things, right? He's just feeling the threat of it.
And what we were working on was, hey, listen, you have the skill set. And as women, I noticed this too, Bob. I actually remember when I was with some senior leaders and I was like, whoa, I am like thinking five steps ahead. And I wasn't doing it in a superior way. I just, it helped me be like, I need to slow down and take them with me. But it did give me that view of like, wow, my brain thinks very differently. And how can I use this with them?
Bob Wright: Well, there's two things there. One is you have a very good computer that allows you to think five steps ahead. But your database with which you are dealing is horizontally very broad, and it's vertically hot. So if you can see vertically more things in the future than I can see, then you need to be pretty gentle with me to help me think with you and join you.
That's part of managing up and harvesting your gifts as a woman, short to her thinking, multiple variables, anticipation way better. See, our anticipation tends to be out of fear. You anticipate more out of developing, supporting, looking at requirements.
Yann Dang: Yeah, and then I guess there is that piece of it, but I've also noticed when women are leading with that, like how they want to help and harvest and do all of those things, then men get, again, scared about not reaching the goal. And so you see that, I mean, oftentimes I'm coaching women of like, how do you make this a win-win for both people? Because, you know, they're protecting the investors or the stakeholders, and they need to be able to bring that data together in a way that both, right, is about the expansiveness, but also whatever short-term thing that might be scary for them or, you know, on pressure for them.
Bob Wright: Well, now you're hitting both sides of the glass ceiling. You're beginning to understand what I'm dealing with above. You are filling in my universe where you're able to understand what's going on with me. And we're now having you underneath the glass ceiling, but we're having you get through the glass ceiling with empathy and understanding. And that doesn't mean you have to be an ass kiss.
Yann Dang: I think that's what a lot of women, their fear of is like, am I a sellout? Do I have to like undermine myself? Do I, you know, make myself dumb to make somebody else feel better. Like there's just like this internal dialogue of like, if I have to be somebody else that feels inauthentic to me, is that who I want to be? But I think that there's a different game that you can play. There's not a all or nothing. And what I learned through coaching, why I feel so passionate about it, is that there is a different way to look at it.
Bob Wright: One of the most difficult things is to understand the gifts that you have. And that other people, whether they're men or women, don't necessarily have the same gifts that you have. And so they may be threatened by your gifts and your perspective. So any responsible communication requires that you to do that. But let's back up a little bit.
If you kiss my butt, you've just stepped into a position of disrespect. The challenge is to be self-respecting and to reassure me without selling yourself out. That's what you're pointing at. Is how do you reassure me that you really want the win for me? That may include understanding my career aspiration.
That may include understanding my binds in things. And so being at that middle point of self-respect without overblowing or undershowing, that's kind of cute, no overblowing, no undershowing, This even peer-to-peer level while I'm letting somebody realize I know you're my boss, I know you're superior, and I'm dedicated to you winning. So that's the critical thing to keep in mind. I am dedicated to you winning from my position so that you will allow the glass not necessarily to shatter, but to become permeable, which is what you did, Yann.
Yann Dang: This is just an interesting point because I know one of the things you're talking about is mutuality, right? Like I think people have this difficulty of, how can I be mutual with someone if they're senior to me? And I was like, well, there's things that you bring to the table, there's things that they want from you, right? There's things you want from them. And what I'm hearing is that if I am clear and I'm self-respecting, I could still be self-respecting, clear with myself, mutual with them, at the same time respect that they are an authority, respect that they have an agenda, and also be okay to align with that agenda while also helping myself.
Bob Wright: Amen. Amen. And we're in a pretty complex territory now because when people get a chance to meet somebody who's several levels above them in an organization, what they tell is think about what you'd want. No, don't think about what you'd want. Try and envision what that other person is facing.
And one of the things that I coach people to do is to at least find the five major challenges the person is facing. What are the major challenges that person is facing that they would acknowledge which means I need to say Well help me understand where you're coming from with what we're doing here. And I'm not going to be presumptuous and say our partnership our relationship so that I can really support you. If I say the word partnership, it could be threatening.
Yann Dang: Okay, got it. Because that's like almost saying, oh, we're mutual already.
Bob Wright: It's too presumptive.
Yann Dang: Okay, got it. So yeah, so this context and this like using precise language, not that we have to be perfect with it, but understanding, you know, the assumptions beneath what we're saying. Because I think even in some of those complex conversations, right, with those authority figures, if you're not clear, you know, on being open and asking from a place of goodwill, It could feel or seem manipulative or trying to position yourself or like you said, ass kissing, right?
Bob Wright: Or presumptuous. In which case I need to say, I understand that this isn't really my place, but if I can understand what you see on your plate that you're facing better, I will be better able to support you in dealing with it.
Yann Dang: Okay. So it's like you're taking on and letting them know what being transparent about what it is for you and how you want to support them.
Bob Wright: Yep, that is my primary agenda. As long as you are an integrous human being who's working for the purpose of the company and the goals of the company to the best of your ability, I will respect and support you. If you are a disintegrous human being and I find you operating in self-interest, I still need to not threaten you. However, I now have a bind because my responsibility is the purpose and the goals of the corporation and not your petty fiefdom. Now we have a really complex situation to deal with now, which we should probably put on to another conversation.
Yann Dang: Yeah, but I think one of the key things around, if I bring it back to this two-way glass ceiling, is recognizing the vulnerabilities of authority figures and leaders, which I think a lot of times people are like, what do they have to be vulnerable of? And oftentimes from a financial standpoint, it was easy for me to see. I'm like, they're telling somebody that they're gonna make some money or they're gonna deliver some profit. And if they don't, there's a lot of pressure on them. And that pressure feels and looks like people's livelihoods.
There's a real pressure and responsibility. And I think oftentimes, maybe it just feels easier for people to not think about that, or maybe just because they're so focused on their own, you know, game that they are not thinking about the vulnerabilities or the pressures being put on their leaders. What is the psychology around that or how should we think about that?
Bob Wright: Well, I'm thinking of an example. One of the larger corporations we worked for was being run by the number two in command in the Navy submarine warfare to Admiral Rickover in World War II. And he was a really tough, tough leader. And he drove everybody really hard. And if you looked at him, you'd go, wow, this guy's really secure.
Well, when you think about it, driving people kind of hard keeps people on the defensive, doesn't it? Now, if you knew what was really going on with this guy, he would go home. His wife would make him take his shoes off when he came in the house, and he was totally afraid of his wife. So we have a man who was nowhere near as secure as he appears on the surface, who has got a very superficial surface. And people learned around him that they needed to be careful with him.
The first time we got to be in a meeting with him, they told us in the first five minutes, his secretary is going to come in and give you a note that he needs to leave. Five minutes, she comes in and gives him a note. But we had already addressed the fact that everybody was afraid of him. We got to keep in that meeting. He was very, very interested to hear how people experienced him.
He was very, very interested to hear because we weren't afraid of him. But he was very, very interested to hear what we had to say. But we ended up with a 45-minute meeting that was supposed to only be five on his schedule.
Yann Dang: Okay. So he was open to hearing a different perspective.
Bob Wright: We were courageous enough to say, are you aware that your staff's not telling you the truth? They were in very heavy pursuit to acquire major corporations. And this is the kind of acquisition where they would spend two, three months just doing like 20 MBAs doing due diligence on a major corporation they were acquiring or looking to acquire.
And too often, he wasn't getting the data he needed to make the decisions that needed to be made. And we were in a position to be able to see that because we were doing their employee assistance and or managed care for the firms.
Yann Dang: So I bring this back to the glass ceiling. He's holding up this glass ceiling, you know, major because he feels scared really underneath it, but it's coming out as anger and people underneath the ceiling are feeling fearful.
Bob Wright: And that dishonesty maintains the glass ceiling because it's only with truth and focusing on the corporate purpose and the corporate goals and the win of the corporate goals that's going to get you up above that ceiling. And so we need to understand who's on the other side of the ceiling and how we're going to make a communication. We were tangential to it, but we were able to deliver the data that he needed. By the way, they did make the next acquisition. They had walked away from a number and they bought a major company for 10 cents on the dollar. Amazing deal.
Yann Dang: Yeah. Okay. And so if there's somebody, right? If there's like a woman in that organization that works for this man, is the way, and I know there's no right or wrong, but is the way to be able to break through that glass ceiling or make it impermeable, as you say, is it to create that trust and rapport with that person through understanding what their major challenges are?
Bob Wright: Well, I'm a little stuck on this example because there was a woman who needed to be protected. But as a woman is to understand your vulnerability, their vulnerability. It's a complex, you know, set of communications. And a lot of times we need to ask permission because when you're going above the glass ceiling, it's always useful to say, no, I'd really like permission to say something that's not really out of my position, but I believe it may be useful. It's not ass kissing, that's simply respectful.
Yann Dang: Yes. I think that's the buy-in that you get from someone else. I remember I have a boss who I had a lot of coaching through because he, on the outside, was very angry, was very scary for people. As I got to know him, I realized he actually truly cares about the company and the people. It doesn't seem like it.
I remember, and I might have been coaching from you, I had asked him when we were just together after a series of meetings, I said, do you mind if I give you feedback on your leadership style? And of course, I'd been working with him for about two years and gained a lot of his trust. And he's like, yes, please tell me. And I said, you scare people. You scare them so much that they are not focused on doing the right thing for the company, they want to please you.
And he had said, but you know, my bark is bigger than my bite. And I'm like, I know that, but all of the people that you connect with don't know that. And for me, it was a big step into that mutuality, but also into him being honestly wanting to hear what I had to say.
Bob Wright: Understanding that you want the best for him and the company. So if we can juggle the purpose of the company, the goals of the company, and the well-being of the person to whom we're talking, then we start finding that it turns into a less hard and more permeable ceiling.
Yann Dang: It is complex though. There's a lot, you know, for just the individual to notice that dynamics and those complexities. And there's the bigger company, and then there's the well-being of your boss, the vulnerability of that person, and what's on their plate. And also having the respect and asking them for the buy-in and not being presumptuous.
Bob Wright: And just think about the enormous amount of data you had, that you had to digest and put it in a digestible form for him.
Yann Dang: Okay, well that's a lot, but I guess if we are trying to, if somebody's new to this and they're like, okay, I want to start taking ownership over this two-way glass ceiling, you know, or at least start being aware of it. What are some things that you would have that person start looking at or thinking about?
Bob Wright: Well, what I'm working on right now is actually understanding that a woman's gifts often work against her because she can see so many variables and that there is an extra job of sorting through those variables, what is going to be most digestible above glass, and to have more empathy for yourself, and to give yourself more room to find the mentors who help you sort this out.
And don't assume just because another executive is a woman that she's not going to undercut you because there are way too many women that think another woman is really behind them. And there are a lot of women executives that are very good at acting like they're supportive, but they are just as threatened as some of the men, or more so.
Yann Dang: So another complexity. But what I'm hearing here is that there's also a lot of room for us to be human, to notice that these leaders in their authority positions, whether they're men or women, have vulnerabilities, have fears, are insecure, and we can have understanding for that and we can have empathy for ourselves trying to navigate this very complex world that is within us and outside of us.
Bob Wright: And one very simple way to think about it is the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Yann Dang: That makes things more simple. I'm seeing that by actually taking responsibility for the parts of the glass ceiling that women can empower themselves and they're capable of bridging, right? It seems more like I think is the connotation oftentimes around a glass ceiling is that it's gonna be - I mean It is complex and it is hard, but it's not impossible.
Bob Wright: And there are moments of truth. I think this is a different conversation. There are points at which the situation may be unworkable, but until you've really used coaching and really worked on your own learning and growing, done everything you can do, keep looking at how you can be more effective, totally focused on the corporate purpose and goals, and always communicating with that in mind and the vulnerability of the other person.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so bringing it back to that corporate purpose and having that be the lead, right? Because that's what I find really helpful about bringing it back to them is it takes me out of my own ego and my own agenda and my own questioning of like, you know, how am I positioning myself and that sort of political manipulative game.
And it takes me back to, actually, what is best for the company? And that clarity and that trust, even in myself as a leader, and helping other people to see like, hey, I think this is what's best for the company, helps me to be more convicted, more grounded, and to have it, it's like not so personal because it's not about me, it's about the company.
Bob Wright: Yep. And there are times where integrity is going to require a very audacious move. I was coaching somebody whose company was owned by another company, a very big-name corporation. And all of the representatives of the owning company were at a meeting and there were some very serious strategic issues being discussed. And the person I was coaching was a guy, so it's a different issue.
But he had been talking to the rest of his boss and his boss's boss, he was three levels down in the meeting, that the strategy that they were going with was going to be a failed strategy. So he had an integrity issue because his boss is putting out a strategy that he's pretty sure is going to be a failed strategy. So now what do you do? You've got an integrity issue.
I think that's one we should let people kind of noodle on and maybe discuss how that came out another time. But women oftentimes sense the integrity issues more fully than others because integrity means wholeness and a woman's capacity to see the whole is so much greater than ours as men.
And oftentimes women are in a bind about what to say when and how to say it when they sense something profoundly disturbing, but we still have responsibilities as communicators to get that across, to be able to say something that's very, very difficult. And how do we do it with all the respect we've been discussing? And I'm always invoking corporate purpose, invoking corporate goals, invoking the sensitivity of everyone involved to perhaps consider this possibility. And then we learn to speak a little more carefully, but not diminishing our self-respect.
Yann Dang: That is a way of thinking about like using the glass ceiling, but also being mindful of it and navigating it for yourself, right? That invoking that company purpose and goal. Because I think what you're saying about the integrity, a lot of the women that I coach, a lot of high-achieving women, they notice, like they notice something feels off, something doesn't seem right. But then it's like, do I wanna be the person to deliver the message, right? There's that fearful negative connotation, which because it is complex, right?
And you can't just go and say, listen, this is what I think, because there's that presumption or there's like not enough context that's created or not enough buy-in, and that it could put you at risk and you're vulnerable to, you know, being the messenger.
Bob Wright: And you don't want to be the messenger that gets shot, which means that timing becomes a variable. Is this the moment when this message should be delivered, or is it something I'm noticing bouncing around the fringes, earning its way into the conversation? So we're now at a very complex level of how do I begin to communicate the other side of the glass ceiling?
Yann Dang: Well, this is great. I mean, this is really helpful in terms of, number one, the complexity of being a woman in the corporate world, of being noticing and being aware that our brains think differently. We are thinking about a lot of different scenarios and we're also more in touch with when things feel off or not. But with that is the responsibility to get clear with ourselves, to get clear with the corporate goals and to figure out the right timing, the right words, or the right messaging to be able to deliver that message in an impactful way with mutuality, self-respect, and honoring the systems that are in place or honoring the authority structures in place.
Bob Wright: I think you just pulled it together.
Yann Dang: Well, I think this is a good one for listeners to listen to again and again to really unpack this piece. But I do see this even, you know, in my own journey in the corporate world as being very powerful and a defining moment in a lot of women's careers, right? They're either going to say, screw the politics, screw the navigating all of this. I want to work somewhere where I'm put in the power position. But here's the thing, right?
Wherever you go, there's going to be another ceiling. Whether it's the boardroom or the stockholders or whoever, right? There's always going to be another level of this dynamic. The more you take it on, the more you understand the dynamic. The more you empower yourself to navigate these glass ceilings, the more impactful you'll be, the more satisfied you'll be, I think is what we're playing at. And the more empathy you'll have for yourself and the people and the players of this system.
Bob Wright: I love it.
Yann Dang: Well, this is so great, Dr. Bob. Thank you so much for joining today and for sharing your wisdom and your experience and the psychology around this. I think it's so much more complex than, you know, the taglines that we see around, you know, glass ceiling shattering it. And when I see things out in the world about the glass ceiling, It's almost like they make it so simplistic, right?
Like, just do this or just do that. And it's like, it's not. If it was that easy, this wouldn't be an issue. This wouldn't be something that we all grapple with as humans in the world. So I appreciate the conversation.
Bob Wright: You may want to actually call this melting the glass ceiling.
Yann Dang: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very different, right? It's that we're able to permeate it, do something different than it's just, it's not this just black and white, like, or just all or nothing, like, it's either there or not there. And you know, to my other point, there's always going to be different levels of the ceiling because there's different levels of power dynamics that are always playing out for all of us, wherever you are, however powerful you are, right? Even if you're the president, right?
Like there's always gonna be different things. There's never the end, you know? So it's circular. See, my brain's already going to my circular manner of how this fits, just playing out in the world.
Bob Wright: It's the gift, and we don't want the gifts to work against you.
Yann Dang: Yes, all right. Well, thank you so much. Any final words for you for high-achieving women out there that are wanting to bridge their gap between technical expertise and emotional intelligence? Anything else that...
Bob Wright: Well, I think learning how to use coaching, because none of these things is an easy solution, and really empowering your coach, and really keeping your coach informed, and be willing to not know, and be willing to understand that sorting these things out can take a very long time, that there are many layers. Things become more and more evident with each move you make. So don't think it's going to be one move and done. Be prepared to keep working it with your coach. Be prepared to keep sorting, to discover new elements of the situation and be accepting that complexity that you're capable of seeing.
Yann Dang: Thank you. And I'm going to bring on one thing. You know, after you would coach me, you would tell me two words. You would always tell me to have fun. So while we're doing all this heavy stuff, learning all this stuff, why is that important?
Bob Wright: Well, because we don't want things to be life or death. We don't want things to be now or never. We want things to be a game that we're learning to play more and more effectively because we like to be effective.
Yann Dang: Well, thanks so much for being on the show. And I look forward to having you on again. I think, well, you know, I want to hear from the listeners what they took, what more they want to hear about, and we'd love to have you back here. But thank you so much.
Bob Wright: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Yann Dang: You're welcome.
Thank you for being a part of The Balanced Leader community. We hope you found today's episode inspiring and actionable. For more resources and to connect with Yann, visit us at aspire-coaching.co. Until next time, keep leading with confidence and purpose.
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