12. Visibility Is a Skill: Bernice Chao’s Strategies for Being Seen and Valued
Do you ever feel like you're waiting to be ready before you show up in your organization with more visibility? Many of us grow up encouraged to avoid being seen, and if you’re the only woman in the room, visibility can feel intimidating. The truth is, waiting is never going to help you grow as a leader.
In today's episode, Bernice Chao, co-author of The Visibility Mindset: How Asian American Leaders Create Opportunities and Push Past Barriers, shares why you don't need to feel ready to lead and how you can build the skill to be seen and valued right now. If you're ambitious but feeling stuck, this is the conversation that will help you step into your full leadership potential.
Get ready to be seen and heard. Bernice challenges the idea that visibility is about perfection or waiting until you feel fully prepared. Instead, she invites us to cultivate visibility as a skill, even when we don't feel 100% ready. By advocating for yourself and finding authentic ways to be seen, you can unlock the opportunities that will change everything in your career.
If you haven’t already, please follow the podcast and leave a rating and review to let me know what you think. I'm creating this show just for you, so I want to know what you would like to hear about in the coming episodes. Find complete instructions here!
What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
Why visibility is a skill you can cultivate, not a trait you're born with.
How to be your own best advocate and market yourself effectively.
The importance of visibility when it comes to networking for accessing hidden job opportunities.
Strategies for overcoming stereotypes and unconscious bias in the workplace.
How to quiet your inner critic and embrace a learning mindset as a leader.
Why having a destination in mind can help you push through discomfort.
How to approach uncomfortable conversations about bias with curiosity and kindness.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
If you haven’t already, please follow the podcast and leave a rating and review to let me know what you think. Find complete instructions here!
The Visibility Mindset: How Asian American Leaders Create Opportunities and Push Past Barriers by Jessalin Lam and Bernice M. Chao
Full Episode Transcript:
Do you ever feel like you're waiting to be ready before stepping into your power? Whether you didn't grow up being encouraged to be seen or you're the only woman in the room, visibility can feel intimidating. The truth is, waiting is holding you back. In today's episode, Bernice Chao, co-author of The Visibility Mindset, shares why you don't need to feel ready to lead and how you can build this skill to be seen and valued right now. If you're ambitious but feeling stuck, this is the conversation that will help you step into your full leadership potential. Get ready to be seen and heard. Let's dive in.
Welcome to The Balanced Leader, hosted by Yann Dang, a Leadership and Life Coach with over 20 years of corporate experience. Drawing from her journey as a former global finance leader and second-generation immigrant, Yann understands the unique challenges women face in male-dominated workplaces.
Each episode offers insights on balancing masculine and feminine energies, mastering soft skills, and building emotional intelligence. Join us to transform frustration into empowerment and unlock your authentic leadership potential.
All right, everyone. Welcome podcast listeners. I have a very special show for you. We are here with Bernice Chao. And I want to talk a bit about visibility before we dive in together. One of the biggest challenges many women face in their professional journey, and this is something that I personally face as well, is feeling invisible. Whether it's walking into a meeting room as the only woman in the room or trying to speak up in spaces where leadership wasn't modeled or encouraged in your family. It can feel like an uphill battle for so many of us.
There's an unspoken fear. Fear of being judged, fear of standing out for all the wrong reasons, or fear that we simply don't belong in those spaces. I hear from women all the time that they feel they need to have everything figured out before they can take their seat at the table or own their true leadership voice. This pressure can stem from family systems where visibility wasn't a value, or from workplaces where you're not just the only, but often the first. And this fear, it's very real.
But what if being seen wasn't about perfection or waiting until you feel ready? What if visibility was a skill, something you could cultivate and grow over time? Today, I'm so excited to dive into this topic with Bernice Chao, co-author of The Visibility Mindset, where she challenges these ideas and helps us understand that visibility isn't about being born into it or naturally confident. It's about stepping up even when you don't feel fully ready. Because waiting for the perfect moment often means missing out on opportunities that could change everything for you. So let's get into it.
-- Yann Dang: I have a very special guest, Bernice Chao here, and she is an award-winning creative leader and also chief creative officer for TDW & Co. She's also the founder of Asians in Advertising. So we're gonna learn more about her, but this show is really about owning your voice, owning your being seen and visibility. And we have Bernice here. So Bernice, welcome to the show.
Bernice Chao: Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so tell us more about yourself I know I kind of gave some titles, but if you could just give us a little bit more background, that would be great.
Bernice Chao: Well starting for where I grew up. I grew up in Cupertino, which is if you have an iPhone, that's where the iPhone is from. We saw these Apple buildings growing up and we're like, oh, we hope Apple makes it. It's like, they were kind of these like, kind of forgotten buildings, because IBM, this tiny company.
And so I grew up with technology. So about fourth or fifth grade, the Mac 2GS came out. This is the first color computer. And as a kid that loved to draw and kind of look at the world and ways to kind of fix it, I always be like, oh, if they just made the freeway this way or if they just put the handle here, which has been a little bit better. The idea of a computer was really exciting. I was doing early art, early websites. I love the idea of technology and art making something really new, which was such a great segue into what I do now.
So I always credit to that time when I was in my junior year of high school and that you're faced with the reality of like, what am I going to do forever? Knowing that now people change careers, it's totally normal to not know what you do, and it's really hard to make an 18-year-old choose what they're going to do for the rest of their life.
And so I just kind of looked around the world around me who I knew, and this is before social media, that I was kind of trying to piece together what that could look like. And I am Asian-American, my parents are Chinese and Taiwanese, and so the acceptable careers are lawyer, doctor, engineer. And so anything outside that there was not really any guidance or resources for.
Luckily, I have a sister that's a bit older and she saw that I had this love for art and she was like, okay, who do I know in my world that I should connect my little sister to and at that time she knew this woman that was a creative director at an accounting firm. And so for the first time in my life, I got to see a woman who was a mother of three who had a career in a creative field and was actually the breadwinner. It wasn't like she had that hobby career that she hoped she would make money. No, she was a complete mom that was a complete, I would say badass if I can say that here.
Yann Dang: Yeah, of course. It's so interesting. It's like creative director of like an accounting company.
Bernice Chao: Yeah. So it was adjacent to being acceptable. Yes, yes. And so for me, that was the first time I was like, I want to be Christy. Christy is so cool. She makes great money. She gets to dress cool. She makes good money. I was like, oh my gosh, I want to be her. And this idea of being able to mirror someone or see someone that you resonate with is how it kind of transitions to what I do today at work and outside of work.
I believe that we need to show the next generation of what's possible. And being someone that's different than the norm in these rooms gives others that opportunity to see it. That understanding of if you can see it, you can probably be it, is such a great thing to have.
And so after I just followed in Christy's Footsteps, I went to the school called Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, it's where she went to. I graduated in graphic design because that's what she went into. And when I was in school, I was able to network my way into my first job, which was actually at an advertising agency, not taking an advertising course at all. And I loved it.
At this time, I was a big video gamer. And so my first client I got to work on was PlayStation. So I was like kid in a candy store where I get to work on the things that made me really excited. And this is the time where YouTube first started. And so we were creating original content for YouTube for video games. So kind of these really cool games, like for instance, one was called So Calm Hell Week. We actually got gamers to do Navy SEAL training, which was really cool to see. And this idea of reality and gaming kind of mixing in together was just really new at the time and very exciting to get into.
So fast forward, I've been in this world for almost 20 years now and I just love how fresh it is. I feel like I'm always getting new problems to solve for on different mediums, which keeps it really fresh and interesting for me. So I've done everything from Super Bowl commercials down to TV commercials, to blowing up a semi-truck on a racetrack, from working with celebrities, TikTok first campaign, skywriting. It's just really fun to see how far your imagination can take you in this world.
Yann Dang: I love what you say about if I can see it, I can be it. And You talk about this in your book, but I also think it really relates to the women listening to this podcast. So, oftentimes we grow up or we're surrounded by people that are doing different things than we really want to do or acting in different ways. Their leadership style might be very different than how we want to be seen. And so it's hard to, you know, see it and then believe it, right?
Because sometimes you don't have that example or everybody's not as lucky as you to have a sister who's looking out for you and introduce you to Christie, who sounds amazing. So when you think about the book around visibility mindset, how do you help people who don't see it, who don't know what that would look like for them?
And I think it really relates to my clients because there is this legacy that a lot of women want to create for other women around them, right? They want to be able to be an example of being able to really belong with a group of male leaders and having that confidence, but also feeling really authentic in themselves, not feeling like they're just playing a part. So what do you do if you don't have those examples or how do you approach that?
Bernice Chao: I would love to be like, one day I was confident. One day I was like, we're gonna be visible. It was definitely a very slow moving progress. So if you're not here now, but you want to be, I don't think it's one of those caterpillar to butterfly moments. I believe it's more of a learn, process every day or just trying to keep it top of mind.
You know, the book is called The Visibility Mindset because when you go into that room, how can you put that mindset of how can I show up today? If you go to that networking event, how do I show up in this networking event? Knowing that it may not come natural to you, and that's okay, but how do you keep in the back of your mind so that when you do go to these places, you make the extra effort to not just slip back into a comfort zone.
And so I give lots of examples in my book of these moments where I just didn't even know that I wasn't visible. I just thought I was doing the best I could. And one of those examples I give is I go into a big meeting room and maybe there's high profile players in my company in that meeting room and they're giving a new assignment. And this new assignment is not something I've worked on before. It's not something I came in with any research or background on, but I'm hearing it for the first time.
And so at the end of this briefing, they'll be like, okay, anybody have any top line ideas or any thoughts about this? And my cultural background, and I think also being a woman, is to not say things that make me seem dumb or that I don't have the right context or something that's been said before, like you don't want to repeat people. You just don't want to come off that you don't know things.
And in that moment, I'll be like, okay, I'm just gonna take really good notes. I'm gonna take the best notes. And for me, it's like, okay, thank you. Goodbye. And I go back to my desk and I research everything out of it. I make all the really smart thoughts and it's there. But in that room, I didn't say anything. I was like, cool, thanks everyone, bye. And then maybe my colleagues, maybe my peers would say things and I'm like, oh, that wasn't very smart.
But for the people that are listening in that room, even if it's wrong, they're still glad they said something.
Yann Dang: They still have like a voice…
Bernice Chao: Yeah, and for me, I would be like, oh, thank goodness I didn't say that. No, it was actually the opposite. They would get rewarded for saying something because that means that they were thinking. Instead, I just look like this very great note-taker.
Yann Dang: Like the secretary.
Bernice Chao: Like a secretary, yeah. I even went to a meeting once and they were like, Bernice, can you take notes? You take the best notes. Because I'm always taking notes. And I'm sure because there wasn't many that look like me in that room.
And so this idea of like, I wasn't speaking up, I wasn't being visible in that moment. I'm sure they were like, who was in that last meeting? I'm not sure if Bernice was really there, let me check. Like, because she didn't say anything. And so I was like, kind of thinking about all these moments, I wasn't visible.
When they had Whiskey Wednesday in the cafeteria, I'm like, look at me, I'm such a good worker. I'm at my computer doing work while they are all drinking. So they're gonna think I'm so much better than my peers for not going out to socialize during that time. However, that's when you're actually making those connections and making friendships and getting those opportunities. No one knows I'm working at my desk.
Yann Dang: If I learned anything from Mad Men, it's that you have to drink and you have to hang out after work and you have to have all these connections in order to be seen and to get the deals and to win.
Bernice Chao: Well, speaking of networking, the stats tell you 85% of jobs are filled through networking. 85. That's a lot of jobs. 70% of jobs are not posted online. And so if you're not networking, you're not seeing those jobs, 70% of the jobs.
And most of the times when they do post those jobs, they have an internal candidate in mind, or they've asked someone that already works there who they know. So there's a reference job. And as we know, when you move up in any field, there's less of those jobs. That's that one CEO job. You don't really see those just like listed publicly online.
And so the only way to kind of know that these jobs are even coming up or being in consideration is being able to network. Having those connections go, oh my gosh, have you heard of this person? They are fantastic. But if we're too shy to make those connections or too shy about asking for what we want or what we're looking for, we're also not being considered for those opportunities.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so I love how you are thinking about this and particularly, I think women mostly know, they're like, I know I need to network, but it's like that hurdle to do so, but in not doing so, I just like highlighting, they think you're the note taker, or I was just talking to another woman leader who was like, people think I'm the tag along, like you're just shadowing or something and you're not really being part of it and owning that perception. When you think about visibility mindset, can you just give for our listeners what that definition is or like how people should be thinking about that?
Bernice Chao: The simplest way to say it is you are your own best advocate. You are your own best advocate. You are your own marketing team for yourself. So how can you make yourself known for what you are good at, for what you want to be visible for, so that when your name comes into the room, they can associate you with something. It would be terrible if someone was like, Bernice, I don't know what she does.
Yann Dang: I don't know, she takes a lot of notes and she seems like a nice girl.
Bernice Chao: Yes. Versus like she has a huge ROI. She always delivers. She's so good at XYZ. Those are the things you want to be known for, which are probably true about you.
Just taking the time and going, what am I really great at? What do I actually want to do? What do I want to be known for? And so for me, I'm like, I love new business pitches. I think I'm actually really great at winning them. I have a very good track record. And that's what I want to be known for. Wouldn't a company love to know that I'm really good at winning them more money?
And I would say, if you are good at what you do and you want to be known for it, how can you put it out there more? There are things we can completely control like creating a website, putting stats on there, putting numbers or examples. And that's also for your LinkedIn and just being like very clear to others what you are good at.
So As we know, when we meet new people, what is the first thing we do when we hear about someone else? You Google, right? You're like, oh, who is this person?
Yann Dang: Yeah, let me do some research.
Bernice Chao: Exactly, and all that stuff comes up. So if you can help yourself before you get into the room, I would say do so. And I give an example where I once had a pitch for the national campaign of Under Armour, a sporting clothing goods company. I am about five feet tall, an Asian petite woman, and I walk into this room and everyone is about a six-two white male. And I'm the person that's supposed to talk the most in the room.
I'm here with the creative ideas. I'm probably talking about 50% of the meeting. And if I go into that room, or when I did go into that room, they probably gave me a look, like, who is this person? She doesn't fit the rest of the cast here. And she probably doesn't play one of the sports that we focus on.
Yann Dang: Like the thought of like, she doesn't know anything about this.
Bernice Chao: And I would say when you go in that room, how do you make sure people listen to you? Because if they're thinking those things, they're tuning you out. And instead, you want them to be like, oh my gosh, this is the right person. Thank goodness we have this person. I'm going to listen to every kernel they say.
Yann Dang: But I love how you're like, this is my responsibility to create this for them versus they're just who they are. I think that's sometimes the thing that gets into a lot of women's way is like thinking that it's an old white man. He's never going to understand. I walked into the room kind of knowing what to expect. But I think that knowing what to expect keeps people from taking that ownership, that responsibility, like you're saying.
So I'd love to hear more about how you were like, well, I know what they're thinking, but I'm also in charge of shaping that, influencing that, advertising it in a way that's going to be impactful for them and for me. A big win-win for both of you.
Bernice Chao: I would say help the other person. It's unconscious bias. It's not fair. I completely get that. But it does me no good going, they need to learn. I don't need to do anything.
Yann Dang: It doesn't help you or the people that will come after you.
Bernice Chao: It doesn't help me. It doesn't help my community. It doesn't help my company. But if I could help make the landing for someone to understand me a little bit easier, I say, let's do it. It makes it clear to understand who I am, even at work.
Yann Dang: Yeah, and you give them the opportunity to want to be educated, want to learn, want to be invited into your space and know you better. And I don't know, I also think like this like, trust, know factor becomes so much more important, the more senior you are, the more visible or even if you're like in sales and advertising doing pitches, right? Like that factor matters a lot. And I think oftentimes people have this thought that, oh, the work's gonna show up for itself, but you are the work, right? Is that how do you see it?
Bernice Chao: In addition to doing all that pre-reading and hopefully they read the pre-reading, I would say help yourself in the meeting. Whether it's a page before you start with why you're in the room, so things you've worked on, why you have any credentials to be working on the thing you're working, knowing, you know, putting your client hat on, what they're thinking when they look at you.
So for me, I was like, we had under every team member in the rooms picture, we had what sport we do. And so I wrote, I did an Ironman, I swam with a great white shark for two blocks. So while I don't play football, basketball, or soccer, I have an athlete's mindset. And that's pretty cool, right? It's probably something that most men in that room haven't done. And so it definitely gave me an edge there where they're like, okay, she might actually get our consumer.
So I say whatever you can do to help. So I would say that would be things you can do about yourself, you know, with the website, the LinkedIn, your portfolio, anything that you can do in the presentation itself. I also like to read about the clients. I also like to look at their LinkedIn, their bios, listen to the podcasts, the interviews they've been on to find places of commonality.
Perhaps the conversation in the room is about something I don't know. And I would say as a child of an immigrant, second generation, I didn't get much knowledge into the category classic rock. And classic rock is a very common conversation in the world of advertising. And so I try to find those places that we can connect. So that if I do need to change the conversation where I could actually be authentically a part of it instead of like nodding along and having no actual interest in it or background in it, that I can find a place where we can kind of have a common place. And so we can build that relationship authentically.
And I would say, if you can move from this place of like, oh yeah, I understand this classic rock term and you don't, and you're kind of faking it, it doesn't make you feel more confident in the room to then go on to present your work.
But if I can make it from a place that you build that trust with something, I would say we're understanding each other and we're learning more. So I would say whatever you can do to kind of bridge those differences, find commonalities, because I believe to be visible in a room, you have to feel like you feel secure and that you feel comfortable in a room. Because you wanna feel confident when you voice your opinion versus feeling, oh, should I say something? Is my voice respected?
Yann Dang: So it's like looking around to see what commonalities there are. And I liked your point of like, well, don't just fake knowing about classic rock because oftentimes when people do that, they feel inauthentic and they're like, oh, I'm just playing a game to be fake. And then they feel more fake and they don't feel as confident in their own leadership. But you're actually saying go and find what else is common and how to bring that to the conversation. What do you think about with sports?
Like it's also football season. What if like somebody talks about every time I come in on a Monday morning, they're always talking about sports or how they all went golfing this weekend and I feel like I don't belong and that's like you just kind of close off and you don't really share. How would you tell somebody to approach that?
Bernice Chao: I would say yes, that stuff happens where you feel like you're not part of the group or the crew at the moment and you're probably not the only one who feels like that. There's probably someone else that's like also doing their laundry list in their head of things that they need to do while someone else is having a conversation. I would say as much as you can to open the conversation up, yes, definitely let them have their conversations that they want to have, but if you can open the conversation up, what's everyone watching? What's everyone listening to? What's a great spot you can recommend to eat nearby?
I would say try to move the conversation at a place that more people can feel inclusive of it. There's a stat by USA Today that said that 86% of Asian-American men and 80% of Asian-American women fundamentally don't feel like they belong in the workplace. And that's higher than other ethnicities, including Black women and people with disabilities. People don't often see that the people on their team feel like they don't belong. They may be really good at hiding behind a smile, a smile and nod, that they're just trying to fit in, but inside they really don't.
And to think that nearly what eight out of 10 Asians that you work with feel that way is pretty high number. And we want to be more conscientious of what are those conversations that we're having? And are people really engaging in those conversations? Or they're just quietly on the sidelines?
Yann Dang: I know in your book you also talk about stereotypes because there is that stereotype like, oh, maybe she's the quiet Asian, you know, person in the corner or, you know, they just like to be quiet or, you know, having those stereotypes. If you are somebody, right, at work, and that is something strong, like you feel like people are gonna have stereotypes about you, what are the ways that in your book you talk about navigating that or being with that in thinking about the visibility mindset?
Bernice Chao: Well, let's talk about what a stereotype is or what an unconscious bias is. It's basically saying, if you are this, therefore you are that. If you're an Asian woman, you must be good at taking notes, you must be a quiet person, you must be submissive, whatever, that you're Asian, you're good at math. That's what a stereotype is. It's using what you know from your life and making those assumptions. So whether that's media, whether that's what society has taught you, what you've kind of just kind of grown to learn, that is what that is.
And so how do you deal with those moments? How do you deal with stereotypes? It could be really uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good to be judged by others or being dismissed by people's assumptions of you. I always say it's better to have the conversation than not to have it. 80% of people rather run from a hard conversation at work than to have it.
But as a community who's often not had this conversation, I feel like a lot of things have just been able to kind of get away with it. And what I say by that is I feel like other communities are really good about taking back some language. Like you're not allowed to say that, that's not cool. However, for the Asian American community, we haven't really done that.
And so I'll still be in rooms where I hear things that I'm like, wow, that makes me really uncomfortable. How is no one flagging that language? Such as when we were in a conversation about the clients doing something wrong, it was said the clients are going to Shanghai us. Or I was in another room where I was like, I heard this a couple of times in the same year. It's like, oh, it's like opening the kimono. And I just hear these things and I'm like, how are we not stopping ourselves and going, whoa, I probably should have said that. And I think it's because this community hasn't said, that's not okay.
So if we can teach others, I say, don't make it like a calling them out. Think of it as calling them in. Think about it, approaching it in a way that you're helping them not look dumb going forward.
And so I have a really good friend, she grew up in the UK and as we were walking down the street there was my three-year-old son and her three-year-old son and she was like, my son is speaking like a China man. And I looked at her going, wait what did I just hear? And she's like, because he's not speaking well. Yeah, because his English isn't very good, right? He's still trying to form sounds and words and so it's coming up a little jumbled as a toddler would. And it's now equated to a whole community of people who are known to not speak well, right? And this is just a very common saying in our country. And so she just thinks it's okay.
At that time, I was so taken aback. And because she's someone I knew, I actually felt even more uncomfortable to have that conversation. But the more I thought about it, I was like, oh, it's really like taking a lot of headspace of me being kind of upset about this. And I really genuinely love my friend that I feel really conflicted about this. And then I was like, I would feel really bad if she did this to someone else and they took it out on her.
And so I was like, you know what? I wanna be a good friend and being a good friend is telling her how I feel. And so we had a really good conversation and where I was like, you said this the other day, you know, what did you mean by that? Let's like talk about it. And then I was like, well, what do you think that really means? And then she was like, whoa, I've always said this. We've always said this. I had no clue. And then she's never said it again. And she said she was sorry. And then we moved on.
And so I always say, the goal is not to come down on someone to make them feel dumb or that they made a huge, great mistake and you're hugely offended. The whole point is making sure that you're having a conversation. We're just kind of kindly educating them that it could be problematic now, what they just said.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I really like the approach of that curiosity and not going to judging, because I think when you show up defensively, the other person's going to as well. And that doesn't make for more openness or connection. Oftentimes, some of the women that have had these experiences just leave feeling even less confident in themselves because it was just awkward or there wasn't a leader in the conversation. And so it just kind of like, okay, I said the uncomfortable thing, but there's no like kind of next step of it and there's a person that says sorry but also defensive so I like this like approach of again you taking ownership and responsibility of like creating that space for another person to feel safe enough to be curious and open, and also for you to share what it was like for you.
Bernice Chao: Yes, I would say create these spaces of understanding, speak up for the community, knowing if this person said it to you, they're probably sending it to other people. And just treat this person with kindness. We all make mistakes. I think language changes all the time. I've made mistakes as well. And I would hope the other person would treat me with the same kindness and tell me when that happens.
Yann Dang: That's great. I think with our sort of the fear of the cancel culture, people are just like kind of scared of even being curious about like, can I ask that person what their background is?
Can I be curious? And I say the same thing to people. Like if you go at it with intentionality and it's more how you say the things versus what you say makes a difference in how people take it. I mean, even if they take it in like a, oh, that wasn't a really great thing that this person said or the way that they asked, but they also get the tone and they get to say, oh, well, thanks for being curious. And, you know, here's what I think. And, you know, also opening that conversation up more and having more of that connection.
Well, thanks so much for that. I think that's super helpful for people because it's these times too of like, what can I say? It's very sort of, you know, in the US it's really polarizing with some of like the election that just happened. I think people are kind of like, what can I say? What's PC? What's not PC? All of these types of things.
One of the things that I just wanted to talk to you about also that is in the book, and I know because we're running up on time, but this idea of being seen as a leader before you feel ready. So oftentimes, right, I think women are super hard on themselves. They want to feel perfect at something and they don't command their position because they're like, well, I'm not the senior person in the room. I shouldn't own that meeting. Or if my boss is there and the CEO is questioning him or her, I shouldn't step in even if I know the answer. So I just want to get from you of how to use this idea, how do you talk about it in the book and how can people embrace it to really support themselves in these times?
Bernice Chao: That feeling that you don't really belong or am I ready? Am I the right person? I often attribute to actually imposter syndrome. And I actually think it's really healthy to have some level of imposter syndrome because that means you know that there's room for growth. Can you imagine you were like, I own this room at 100% all the time?
Like, you're just never gonna challenge yourself. So I actually think it's really healthy. And the studies actually show that the smartest people actually have some level of this. So you're in really good company. So I do think it's healthy.
And I love Michelle Obama. She talks about her imposter syndrome all the time, how she's been at some of the most important tables in the world, and what she's realized is they're not that smart. And so I would like you to also remember that. The people that you are in the room with, they may not be the smartest person. They may not be as perfect as you think they are in that moment, so it's okay for you not to be as perfect as well.
They're also learning, they're also trying to get better. They're not infallible humans. And I think there's this idea, it's like, oh, I'm in this room with leaders. They're all super leader material. They're born DNA with leader material and I do not have leader material, right? And that's why I feel like I don't belong or can I say something right now?
Yann Dang: So it kind of get like people get into that all or nothing thinking, it's like, They're all this way and I'm just over here and sort of like me versus them. And I'm just little old me, like how can I show up or speak up?
Bernice Chao: And so when I talk about how do you quiet that chatter in your head going, why am I here? Do I deserve to be here? Can I speak? I actually give like an acronym here where it's called BOLD, B-O-L-D.
Just different ways to kind of check yourself in those moments where you're getting that feeling kind of creep up on you. And that B is for your buddy. Having a buddy that can kind of be like, no, you're pretty amazing. Do you remember that thing you did? Or, okay, maybe you should work on something like this.
I always think it's good to have that peer feedback. So this could be someone in life as a friend that you really trust, or this could be someone at work that you really trust the opinion of. But I think it's really good to have someone to kind of level set you. Cause I think sometimes we get in our own head and we're like, why do we deserve to be here? And you know, you have that friend that's a really good cheerleader.
Be like, no, you 100% deserve this space.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so kind of having somebody else reality check the cha-cha in your head instead of being like, just thinking about what you're thinking and having somebody, you know, be able to intercept or influence or interrupt the pattern, right?
Bernice Chao: Exactly. And then O is for owning, owning your achievements, your accomplishments. So many times as women, we're in a busy, busy, frantic world. We're going from one thing to the next, or kids, or life, just project to project that we don't really kind of sit in our achievements.
Like, oh my gosh, I did that? Whoa, I'm amazing. Like, when do we ever give ourselves that pat on the back? So whatever you could do to kind of hold that space for yourself, even if it's a Google spreadsheet, after you do it, just drop something on that spreadsheet to remind yourself. Is it a copy and paste from an email? Is it a screenshot into a folder? Whatever that is, putting your awards on your walls, whatever that is to remind yourself that you are very good at what you do and other people see it. I would say make that easily accessible for you to see.
The L is to know we're on a learning journey. We talk about this curiosity to know that even if you fail, we're just here to learn and grow. So I give the example, you're giving a presentation, you completely flub, You say the wrong stats, you forget some words, you kind of stumble, whatever that is, you flubbed it. You can have one of two reactions here, right? Like, oh my gosh, I need to get better, or I will never speak again. I am not a good presenter, I should never be doing this.
But if you're saying, oh, I should just learn to get better. Where can I learn how to speak better? Is that Toastmasters? Am I pre-recording myself? Am I practicing in that room? Am I recording it on Zoom and then watching myself back to see how I did. Whatever that learning journey looks like for you, but really leaning into those places that you feel could be weak and kind of building on those skills.
And that final D in bold is destination. If you have your eye on the prize, it's really helpful. So if you're going, I will never speak again, but one day I want to be a manager, you're like, well, do managers need to speak? Yes. Do they have to give presentations? Yes. Does that mean you can't ever speak again? No. So if you're going, okay, I have to learn to figure this out because it's part of my destination, then it kind of gives you like, okay, I'm in this room. Should I really be in this room?
Do I deserve to be in the room? And you're like, well, I one day want to be that leader of this. I should be in this room. I should be in this room and soaking up every minute. I should be in this room and asking a ton of questions. You kind of have a different perspective when you're in those places and you're feeling that way, knowing that's all part of the journey to get to where you want to go.
Yann Dang: It's kind of like that bigger why, right? Like that you could commit to a bigger vision of yourself that even in the here and now you're like, "Oh, I have lots of things to learn." A lot of the women that I coach, they have a mission of leaving a legacy with all of the women that are either in their life or watching them or people of color that they're like, "Oh, if she could make it, I can make it right." And oftentimes, if you can drop into that why for them, that meaningfulness, then all of these things don't seem so big, right?
It's kind of like I can show up and I'm showing up for me, but I'm also showing up for people who will come after me and people who are watching me. I just remember one time I did a big presentation after a big acquisition that we did. And I remember this French woman leader who I respected and regarded a lot, she was like, "You were up there. You said that the numbers that we have to meet in our sales, you are so inspiring." And there weren't any other women leaders. Like for her, that was sort of crystallized in her mind.
And oftentimes I think, you know, as you're going through it, that learning process and wanting to be that for somebody else, you also have to have compassion for yourself wherever you are at, right? And know that you're moving more towards that and people are going to show up differently because they had that example. Like just how we started, right? If you can see it, then you can be it, right? You see more of that.
So thank you so much for sharing all of this. I love the acronym. I think it's super impactful and useful for people to think about, especially when that cha-cha happens. But I also love the idea that imposter syndrome is not this terrible, scary disease, which I also talk about, right? It is actually some self-awareness, but we also wanna keep it in check. We don't want to overindulge in it and to give it like its own mind and take over how we show up. You know, it's good to be aware. You don't wanna be totally a person that's like, I don't know, these thoughts about like wavering confidence or unshakable confidence. I'm like, that's not a human person.
Like that's not like, that's like, you know, asking a child to behave all the time. Like that's just not true. So I like being able to talk about it in this way. And I think what you've shared with us today is really helpful in helping people take ownership over their visibility and their mindset around visibility. So thanks so much for being on the show. Any final words for women out there that are like, I want to like own my brand or my perception better? Any final thoughts?
Bernice Chao: Get started. It doesn't have to be perfect. You are your own best advocate. Definitely lean into that space. It may feel uncomfortable at first to talk about yourself, especially if you were not taught to do that growing up, to have that space for yourself. Find your rhythm in it.
I don't come out going, this is me. I kind of find my own subtle ways that I feel comfortable with it. So definitely find your space that you want to hold for your own visibility in a way that feels authentic to you and take a moment and look at the people that you follow or that you really respect in the industry. You can kind of see their different ways at it, what ways you like and what ways you don't. And so you can kind of get that inspiration from those out there.
Yann Dang: Thank you so much. Well, Bernice, if people want to get your book or connect with you, what are the ways that they can do that?
Bernice Chao: Well, absolutely. Feel free to reach out to me. I'm pretty easily Googleable. My name is Bernice Chao. It's on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram and my book is available pretty much everywhere.
It's the Visibility Mindset. And thank you again for having me.
Yann Dang: Have a great rest of your day. I will see you guys all next week. Thanks, Bernice. Bye. Thank you.
-- Thank you for being a part of The Balanced Leader community. We hope you found today's episode inspiring and actionable. For more resources and to connect with Yann, visit us at aspire-coaching.co. Until next time, keep leading with confidence and purpose.
Welcome to The Balanced Leader, hosted by Yann Dang, a Leadership and Life Coach with over 20 years of corporate experience. Drawing from her journey as a former global finance leader and second-generation immigrant, Yann understands the unique challenges women face in male-dominated workplaces.
Each episode offers insights on balancing masculine and feminine energies, mastering soft skills, and building emotional intelligence. Join us to transform frustration into empowerment and unlock your authentic leadership potential.
All right, everyone. Welcome podcast listeners. I have a very special show for you. We are here with Bernice Chao. And I want to talk a bit about visibility before we dive in together. One of the biggest challenges many women face in their professional journey, and this is something that I personally face as well, is feeling invisible. Whether it's walking into a meeting room as the only woman in the room or trying to speak up in spaces where leadership wasn't modeled or encouraged in your family. It can feel like an uphill battle for so many of us.
There's an unspoken fear. Fear of being judged, fear of standing out for all the wrong reasons, or fear that we simply don't belong in those spaces. I hear from women all the time that they feel they need to have everything figured out before they can take their seat at the table or own their true leadership voice. This pressure can stem from family systems where visibility wasn't a value, or from workplaces where you're not just the only, but often the first. And this fear, it's very real.
But what if being seen wasn't about perfection or waiting until you feel ready? What if visibility was a skill, something you could cultivate and grow over time? Today, I'm so excited to dive into this topic with Bernice Chao, co-author of The Visibility Mindset, where she challenges these ideas and helps us understand that visibility isn't about being born into it or naturally confident. It's about stepping up even when you don't feel fully ready. Because waiting for the perfect moment often means missing out on opportunities that could change everything for you. So let's get into it.
-- Yann Dang: I have a very special guest, Bernice Chao here, and she is an award-winning creative leader and also chief creative officer for TDW & Co. She's also the founder of Asians in Advertising. So we're gonna learn more about her, but this show is really about owning your voice, owning your being seen and visibility. And we have Bernice here. So Bernice, welcome to the show.
Bernice Chao: Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so tell us more about yourself I know I kind of gave some titles, but if you could just give us a little bit more background, that would be great.
Bernice Chao: Well starting for where I grew up. I grew up in Cupertino, which is if you have an iPhone, that's where the iPhone is from. We saw these Apple buildings growing up and we're like, oh, we hope Apple makes it. It's like, they were kind of these like, kind of forgotten buildings, because IBM, this tiny company.
And so I grew up with technology. So about fourth or fifth grade, the Mac 2GS came out. This is the first color computer. And as a kid that loved to draw and kind of look at the world and ways to kind of fix it, I always be like, oh, if they just made the freeway this way or if they just put the handle here, which has been a little bit better. The idea of a computer was really exciting. I was doing early art, early websites. I love the idea of technology and art making something really new, which was such a great segue into what I do now.
So I always credit to that time when I was in my junior year of high school and that you're faced with the reality of like, what am I going to do forever? Knowing that now people change careers, it's totally normal to not know what you do, and it's really hard to make an 18-year-old choose what they're going to do for the rest of their life.
And so I just kind of looked around the world around me who I knew, and this is before social media, that I was kind of trying to piece together what that could look like. And I am Asian-American, my parents are Chinese and Taiwanese, and so the acceptable careers are lawyer, doctor, engineer. And so anything outside that there was not really any guidance or resources for.
Luckily, I have a sister that's a bit older and she saw that I had this love for art and she was like, okay, who do I know in my world that I should connect my little sister to and at that time she knew this woman that was a creative director at an accounting firm. And so for the first time in my life, I got to see a woman who was a mother of three who had a career in a creative field and was actually the breadwinner. It wasn't like she had that hobby career that she hoped she would make money. No, she was a complete mom that was a complete, I would say badass if I can say that here.
Yann Dang: Yeah, of course. It's so interesting. It's like creative director of like an accounting company.
Bernice Chao: Yeah. So it was adjacent to being acceptable. Yes, yes. And so for me, that was the first time I was like, I want to be Christy. Christy is so cool. She makes great money. She gets to dress cool. She makes good money. I was like, oh my gosh, I want to be her. And this idea of being able to mirror someone or see someone that you resonate with is how it kind of transitions to what I do today at work and outside of work.
I believe that we need to show the next generation of what's possible. And being someone that's different than the norm in these rooms gives others that opportunity to see it. That understanding of if you can see it, you can probably be it, is such a great thing to have.
And so after I just followed in Christy's Footsteps, I went to the school called Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, it's where she went to. I graduated in graphic design because that's what she went into. And when I was in school, I was able to network my way into my first job, which was actually at an advertising agency, not taking an advertising course at all. And I loved it.
At this time, I was a big video gamer. And so my first client I got to work on was PlayStation. So I was like kid in a candy store where I get to work on the things that made me really excited. And this is the time where YouTube first started. And so we were creating original content for YouTube for video games. So kind of these really cool games, like for instance, one was called So Calm Hell Week. We actually got gamers to do Navy SEAL training, which was really cool to see. And this idea of reality and gaming kind of mixing in together was just really new at the time and very exciting to get into.
So fast forward, I've been in this world for almost 20 years now and I just love how fresh it is. I feel like I'm always getting new problems to solve for on different mediums, which keeps it really fresh and interesting for me. So I've done everything from Super Bowl commercials down to TV commercials, to blowing up a semi-truck on a racetrack, from working with celebrities, TikTok first campaign, skywriting. It's just really fun to see how far your imagination can take you in this world.
Yann Dang: I love what you say about if I can see it, I can be it. And You talk about this in your book, but I also think it really relates to the women listening to this podcast. So, oftentimes we grow up or we're surrounded by people that are doing different things than we really want to do or acting in different ways. Their leadership style might be very different than how we want to be seen. And so it's hard to, you know, see it and then believe it, right?
Because sometimes you don't have that example or everybody's not as lucky as you to have a sister who's looking out for you and introduce you to Christie, who sounds amazing. So when you think about the book around visibility mindset, how do you help people who don't see it, who don't know what that would look like for them?
And I think it really relates to my clients because there is this legacy that a lot of women want to create for other women around them, right? They want to be able to be an example of being able to really belong with a group of male leaders and having that confidence, but also feeling really authentic in themselves, not feeling like they're just playing a part. So what do you do if you don't have those examples or how do you approach that?
Bernice Chao: I would love to be like, one day I was confident. One day I was like, we're gonna be visible. It was definitely a very slow moving progress. So if you're not here now, but you want to be, I don't think it's one of those caterpillar to butterfly moments. I believe it's more of a learn, process every day or just trying to keep it top of mind.
You know, the book is called The Visibility Mindset because when you go into that room, how can you put that mindset of how can I show up today? If you go to that networking event, how do I show up in this networking event? Knowing that it may not come natural to you, and that's okay, but how do you keep in the back of your mind so that when you do go to these places, you make the extra effort to not just slip back into a comfort zone.
And so I give lots of examples in my book of these moments where I just didn't even know that I wasn't visible. I just thought I was doing the best I could. And one of those examples I give is I go into a big meeting room and maybe there's high profile players in my company in that meeting room and they're giving a new assignment. And this new assignment is not something I've worked on before. It's not something I came in with any research or background on, but I'm hearing it for the first time.
And so at the end of this briefing, they'll be like, okay, anybody have any top line ideas or any thoughts about this? And my cultural background, and I think also being a woman, is to not say things that make me seem dumb or that I don't have the right context or something that's been said before, like you don't want to repeat people. You just don't want to come off that you don't know things.
And in that moment, I'll be like, okay, I'm just gonna take really good notes. I'm gonna take the best notes. And for me, it's like, okay, thank you. Goodbye. And I go back to my desk and I research everything out of it. I make all the really smart thoughts and it's there. But in that room, I didn't say anything. I was like, cool, thanks everyone, bye. And then maybe my colleagues, maybe my peers would say things and I'm like, oh, that wasn't very smart.
But for the people that are listening in that room, even if it's wrong, they're still glad they said something.
Yann Dang: They still have like a voice…
Bernice Chao: Yeah, and for me, I would be like, oh, thank goodness I didn't say that. No, it was actually the opposite. They would get rewarded for saying something because that means that they were thinking. Instead, I just look like this very great note-taker.
Yann Dang: Like the secretary.
Bernice Chao: Like a secretary, yeah. I even went to a meeting once and they were like, Bernice, can you take notes? You take the best notes. Because I'm always taking notes. And I'm sure because there wasn't many that look like me in that room.
And so this idea of like, I wasn't speaking up, I wasn't being visible in that moment. I'm sure they were like, who was in that last meeting? I'm not sure if Bernice was really there, let me check. Like, because she didn't say anything. And so I was like, kind of thinking about all these moments, I wasn't visible.
When they had Whiskey Wednesday in the cafeteria, I'm like, look at me, I'm such a good worker. I'm at my computer doing work while they are all drinking. So they're gonna think I'm so much better than my peers for not going out to socialize during that time. However, that's when you're actually making those connections and making friendships and getting those opportunities. No one knows I'm working at my desk.
Yann Dang: If I learned anything from Mad Men, it's that you have to drink and you have to hang out after work and you have to have all these connections in order to be seen and to get the deals and to win.
Bernice Chao: Well, speaking of networking, the stats tell you 85% of jobs are filled through networking. 85. That's a lot of jobs. 70% of jobs are not posted online. And so if you're not networking, you're not seeing those jobs, 70% of the jobs.
And most of the times when they do post those jobs, they have an internal candidate in mind, or they've asked someone that already works there who they know. So there's a reference job. And as we know, when you move up in any field, there's less of those jobs. That's that one CEO job. You don't really see those just like listed publicly online.
And so the only way to kind of know that these jobs are even coming up or being in consideration is being able to network. Having those connections go, oh my gosh, have you heard of this person? They are fantastic. But if we're too shy to make those connections or too shy about asking for what we want or what we're looking for, we're also not being considered for those opportunities.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so I love how you are thinking about this and particularly, I think women mostly know, they're like, I know I need to network, but it's like that hurdle to do so, but in not doing so, I just like highlighting, they think you're the note taker, or I was just talking to another woman leader who was like, people think I'm the tag along, like you're just shadowing or something and you're not really being part of it and owning that perception. When you think about visibility mindset, can you just give for our listeners what that definition is or like how people should be thinking about that?
Bernice Chao: The simplest way to say it is you are your own best advocate. You are your own best advocate. You are your own marketing team for yourself. So how can you make yourself known for what you are good at, for what you want to be visible for, so that when your name comes into the room, they can associate you with something. It would be terrible if someone was like, Bernice, I don't know what she does.
Yann Dang: I don't know, she takes a lot of notes and she seems like a nice girl.
Bernice Chao: Yes. Versus like she has a huge ROI. She always delivers. She's so good at XYZ. Those are the things you want to be known for, which are probably true about you.
Just taking the time and going, what am I really great at? What do I actually want to do? What do I want to be known for? And so for me, I'm like, I love new business pitches. I think I'm actually really great at winning them. I have a very good track record. And that's what I want to be known for. Wouldn't a company love to know that I'm really good at winning them more money?
And I would say, if you are good at what you do and you want to be known for it, how can you put it out there more? There are things we can completely control like creating a website, putting stats on there, putting numbers or examples. And that's also for your LinkedIn and just being like very clear to others what you are good at.
So As we know, when we meet new people, what is the first thing we do when we hear about someone else? You Google, right? You're like, oh, who is this person?
Yann Dang: Yeah, let me do some research.
Bernice Chao: Exactly, and all that stuff comes up. So if you can help yourself before you get into the room, I would say do so. And I give an example where I once had a pitch for the national campaign of Under Armour, a sporting clothing goods company. I am about five feet tall, an Asian petite woman, and I walk into this room and everyone is about a six-two white male. And I'm the person that's supposed to talk the most in the room.
I'm here with the creative ideas. I'm probably talking about 50% of the meeting. And if I go into that room, or when I did go into that room, they probably gave me a look, like, who is this person? She doesn't fit the rest of the cast here. And she probably doesn't play one of the sports that we focus on.
Yann Dang: Like the thought of like, she doesn't know anything about this.
Bernice Chao: And I would say when you go in that room, how do you make sure people listen to you? Because if they're thinking those things, they're tuning you out. And instead, you want them to be like, oh my gosh, this is the right person. Thank goodness we have this person. I'm going to listen to every kernel they say.
Yann Dang: But I love how you're like, this is my responsibility to create this for them versus they're just who they are. I think that's sometimes the thing that gets into a lot of women's way is like thinking that it's an old white man. He's never going to understand. I walked into the room kind of knowing what to expect. But I think that knowing what to expect keeps people from taking that ownership, that responsibility, like you're saying.
So I'd love to hear more about how you were like, well, I know what they're thinking, but I'm also in charge of shaping that, influencing that, advertising it in a way that's going to be impactful for them and for me. A big win-win for both of you.
Bernice Chao: I would say help the other person. It's unconscious bias. It's not fair. I completely get that. But it does me no good going, they need to learn. I don't need to do anything.
Yann Dang: It doesn't help you or the people that will come after you.
Bernice Chao: It doesn't help me. It doesn't help my community. It doesn't help my company. But if I could help make the landing for someone to understand me a little bit easier, I say, let's do it. It makes it clear to understand who I am, even at work.
Yann Dang: Yeah, and you give them the opportunity to want to be educated, want to learn, want to be invited into your space and know you better. And I don't know, I also think like this like, trust, know factor becomes so much more important, the more senior you are, the more visible or even if you're like in sales and advertising doing pitches, right? Like that factor matters a lot. And I think oftentimes people have this thought that, oh, the work's gonna show up for itself, but you are the work, right? Is that how do you see it?
Bernice Chao: In addition to doing all that pre-reading and hopefully they read the pre-reading, I would say help yourself in the meeting. Whether it's a page before you start with why you're in the room, so things you've worked on, why you have any credentials to be working on the thing you're working, knowing, you know, putting your client hat on, what they're thinking when they look at you.
So for me, I was like, we had under every team member in the rooms picture, we had what sport we do. And so I wrote, I did an Ironman, I swam with a great white shark for two blocks. So while I don't play football, basketball, or soccer, I have an athlete's mindset. And that's pretty cool, right? It's probably something that most men in that room haven't done. And so it definitely gave me an edge there where they're like, okay, she might actually get our consumer.
So I say whatever you can do to help. So I would say that would be things you can do about yourself, you know, with the website, the LinkedIn, your portfolio, anything that you can do in the presentation itself. I also like to read about the clients. I also like to look at their LinkedIn, their bios, listen to the podcasts, the interviews they've been on to find places of commonality.
Perhaps the conversation in the room is about something I don't know. And I would say as a child of an immigrant, second generation, I didn't get much knowledge into the category classic rock. And classic rock is a very common conversation in the world of advertising. And so I try to find those places that we can connect. So that if I do need to change the conversation where I could actually be authentically a part of it instead of like nodding along and having no actual interest in it or background in it, that I can find a place where we can kind of have a common place. And so we can build that relationship authentically.
And I would say, if you can move from this place of like, oh yeah, I understand this classic rock term and you don't, and you're kind of faking it, it doesn't make you feel more confident in the room to then go on to present your work.
But if I can make it from a place that you build that trust with something, I would say we're understanding each other and we're learning more. So I would say whatever you can do to kind of bridge those differences, find commonalities, because I believe to be visible in a room, you have to feel like you feel secure and that you feel comfortable in a room. Because you wanna feel confident when you voice your opinion versus feeling, oh, should I say something? Is my voice respected?
Yann Dang: So it's like looking around to see what commonalities there are. And I liked your point of like, well, don't just fake knowing about classic rock because oftentimes when people do that, they feel inauthentic and they're like, oh, I'm just playing a game to be fake. And then they feel more fake and they don't feel as confident in their own leadership. But you're actually saying go and find what else is common and how to bring that to the conversation. What do you think about with sports?
Like it's also football season. What if like somebody talks about every time I come in on a Monday morning, they're always talking about sports or how they all went golfing this weekend and I feel like I don't belong and that's like you just kind of close off and you don't really share. How would you tell somebody to approach that?
Bernice Chao: I would say yes, that stuff happens where you feel like you're not part of the group or the crew at the moment and you're probably not the only one who feels like that. There's probably someone else that's like also doing their laundry list in their head of things that they need to do while someone else is having a conversation. I would say as much as you can to open the conversation up, yes, definitely let them have their conversations that they want to have, but if you can open the conversation up, what's everyone watching? What's everyone listening to? What's a great spot you can recommend to eat nearby?
I would say try to move the conversation at a place that more people can feel inclusive of it. There's a stat by USA Today that said that 86% of Asian-American men and 80% of Asian-American women fundamentally don't feel like they belong in the workplace. And that's higher than other ethnicities, including Black women and people with disabilities. People don't often see that the people on their team feel like they don't belong. They may be really good at hiding behind a smile, a smile and nod, that they're just trying to fit in, but inside they really don't.
And to think that nearly what eight out of 10 Asians that you work with feel that way is pretty high number. And we want to be more conscientious of what are those conversations that we're having? And are people really engaging in those conversations? Or they're just quietly on the sidelines?
Yann Dang: I know in your book you also talk about stereotypes because there is that stereotype like, oh, maybe she's the quiet Asian, you know, person in the corner or, you know, they just like to be quiet or, you know, having those stereotypes. If you are somebody, right, at work, and that is something strong, like you feel like people are gonna have stereotypes about you, what are the ways that in your book you talk about navigating that or being with that in thinking about the visibility mindset?
Bernice Chao: Well, let's talk about what a stereotype is or what an unconscious bias is. It's basically saying, if you are this, therefore you are that. If you're an Asian woman, you must be good at taking notes, you must be a quiet person, you must be submissive, whatever, that you're Asian, you're good at math. That's what a stereotype is. It's using what you know from your life and making those assumptions. So whether that's media, whether that's what society has taught you, what you've kind of just kind of grown to learn, that is what that is.
And so how do you deal with those moments? How do you deal with stereotypes? It could be really uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good to be judged by others or being dismissed by people's assumptions of you. I always say it's better to have the conversation than not to have it. 80% of people rather run from a hard conversation at work than to have it.
But as a community who's often not had this conversation, I feel like a lot of things have just been able to kind of get away with it. And what I say by that is I feel like other communities are really good about taking back some language. Like you're not allowed to say that, that's not cool. However, for the Asian American community, we haven't really done that.
And so I'll still be in rooms where I hear things that I'm like, wow, that makes me really uncomfortable. How is no one flagging that language? Such as when we were in a conversation about the clients doing something wrong, it was said the clients are going to Shanghai us. Or I was in another room where I was like, I heard this a couple of times in the same year. It's like, oh, it's like opening the kimono. And I just hear these things and I'm like, how are we not stopping ourselves and going, whoa, I probably should have said that. And I think it's because this community hasn't said, that's not okay.
So if we can teach others, I say, don't make it like a calling them out. Think of it as calling them in. Think about it, approaching it in a way that you're helping them not look dumb going forward.
And so I have a really good friend, she grew up in the UK and as we were walking down the street there was my three-year-old son and her three-year-old son and she was like, my son is speaking like a China man. And I looked at her going, wait what did I just hear? And she's like, because he's not speaking well. Yeah, because his English isn't very good, right? He's still trying to form sounds and words and so it's coming up a little jumbled as a toddler would. And it's now equated to a whole community of people who are known to not speak well, right? And this is just a very common saying in our country. And so she just thinks it's okay.
At that time, I was so taken aback. And because she's someone I knew, I actually felt even more uncomfortable to have that conversation. But the more I thought about it, I was like, oh, it's really like taking a lot of headspace of me being kind of upset about this. And I really genuinely love my friend that I feel really conflicted about this. And then I was like, I would feel really bad if she did this to someone else and they took it out on her.
And so I was like, you know what? I wanna be a good friend and being a good friend is telling her how I feel. And so we had a really good conversation and where I was like, you said this the other day, you know, what did you mean by that? Let's like talk about it. And then I was like, well, what do you think that really means? And then she was like, whoa, I've always said this. We've always said this. I had no clue. And then she's never said it again. And she said she was sorry. And then we moved on.
And so I always say, the goal is not to come down on someone to make them feel dumb or that they made a huge, great mistake and you're hugely offended. The whole point is making sure that you're having a conversation. We're just kind of kindly educating them that it could be problematic now, what they just said.
Yann Dang: Yeah, I really like the approach of that curiosity and not going to judging, because I think when you show up defensively, the other person's going to as well. And that doesn't make for more openness or connection. Oftentimes, some of the women that have had these experiences just leave feeling even less confident in themselves because it was just awkward or there wasn't a leader in the conversation. And so it just kind of like, okay, I said the uncomfortable thing, but there's no like kind of next step of it and there's a person that says sorry but also defensive so I like this like approach of again you taking ownership and responsibility of like creating that space for another person to feel safe enough to be curious and open, and also for you to share what it was like for you.
Bernice Chao: Yes, I would say create these spaces of understanding, speak up for the community, knowing if this person said it to you, they're probably sending it to other people. And just treat this person with kindness. We all make mistakes. I think language changes all the time. I've made mistakes as well. And I would hope the other person would treat me with the same kindness and tell me when that happens.
Yann Dang: That's great. I think with our sort of the fear of the cancel culture, people are just like kind of scared of even being curious about like, can I ask that person what their background is?
Can I be curious? And I say the same thing to people. Like if you go at it with intentionality and it's more how you say the things versus what you say makes a difference in how people take it. I mean, even if they take it in like a, oh, that wasn't a really great thing that this person said or the way that they asked, but they also get the tone and they get to say, oh, well, thanks for being curious. And, you know, here's what I think. And, you know, also opening that conversation up more and having more of that connection.
Well, thanks so much for that. I think that's super helpful for people because it's these times too of like, what can I say? It's very sort of, you know, in the US it's really polarizing with some of like the election that just happened. I think people are kind of like, what can I say? What's PC? What's not PC? All of these types of things.
One of the things that I just wanted to talk to you about also that is in the book, and I know because we're running up on time, but this idea of being seen as a leader before you feel ready. So oftentimes, right, I think women are super hard on themselves. They want to feel perfect at something and they don't command their position because they're like, well, I'm not the senior person in the room. I shouldn't own that meeting. Or if my boss is there and the CEO is questioning him or her, I shouldn't step in even if I know the answer. So I just want to get from you of how to use this idea, how do you talk about it in the book and how can people embrace it to really support themselves in these times?
Bernice Chao: That feeling that you don't really belong or am I ready? Am I the right person? I often attribute to actually imposter syndrome. And I actually think it's really healthy to have some level of imposter syndrome because that means you know that there's room for growth. Can you imagine you were like, I own this room at 100% all the time?
Like, you're just never gonna challenge yourself. So I actually think it's really healthy. And the studies actually show that the smartest people actually have some level of this. So you're in really good company. So I do think it's healthy.
And I love Michelle Obama. She talks about her imposter syndrome all the time, how she's been at some of the most important tables in the world, and what she's realized is they're not that smart. And so I would like you to also remember that. The people that you are in the room with, they may not be the smartest person. They may not be as perfect as you think they are in that moment, so it's okay for you not to be as perfect as well.
They're also learning, they're also trying to get better. They're not infallible humans. And I think there's this idea, it's like, oh, I'm in this room with leaders. They're all super leader material. They're born DNA with leader material and I do not have leader material, right? And that's why I feel like I don't belong or can I say something right now?
Yann Dang: So it kind of get like people get into that all or nothing thinking, it's like, They're all this way and I'm just over here and sort of like me versus them. And I'm just little old me, like how can I show up or speak up?
Bernice Chao: And so when I talk about how do you quiet that chatter in your head going, why am I here? Do I deserve to be here? Can I speak? I actually give like an acronym here where it's called BOLD, B-O-L-D.
Just different ways to kind of check yourself in those moments where you're getting that feeling kind of creep up on you. And that B is for your buddy. Having a buddy that can kind of be like, no, you're pretty amazing. Do you remember that thing you did? Or, okay, maybe you should work on something like this.
I always think it's good to have that peer feedback. So this could be someone in life as a friend that you really trust, or this could be someone at work that you really trust the opinion of. But I think it's really good to have someone to kind of level set you. Cause I think sometimes we get in our own head and we're like, why do we deserve to be here? And you know, you have that friend that's a really good cheerleader.
Be like, no, you 100% deserve this space.
Yann Dang: Yeah, so kind of having somebody else reality check the cha-cha in your head instead of being like, just thinking about what you're thinking and having somebody, you know, be able to intercept or influence or interrupt the pattern, right?
Bernice Chao: Exactly. And then O is for owning, owning your achievements, your accomplishments. So many times as women, we're in a busy, busy, frantic world. We're going from one thing to the next, or kids, or life, just project to project that we don't really kind of sit in our achievements.
Like, oh my gosh, I did that? Whoa, I'm amazing. Like, when do we ever give ourselves that pat on the back? So whatever you could do to kind of hold that space for yourself, even if it's a Google spreadsheet, after you do it, just drop something on that spreadsheet to remind yourself. Is it a copy and paste from an email? Is it a screenshot into a folder? Whatever that is, putting your awards on your walls, whatever that is to remind yourself that you are very good at what you do and other people see it. I would say make that easily accessible for you to see.
The L is to know we're on a learning journey. We talk about this curiosity to know that even if you fail, we're just here to learn and grow. So I give the example, you're giving a presentation, you completely flub, You say the wrong stats, you forget some words, you kind of stumble, whatever that is, you flubbed it. You can have one of two reactions here, right? Like, oh my gosh, I need to get better, or I will never speak again. I am not a good presenter, I should never be doing this.
But if you're saying, oh, I should just learn to get better. Where can I learn how to speak better? Is that Toastmasters? Am I pre-recording myself? Am I practicing in that room? Am I recording it on Zoom and then watching myself back to see how I did. Whatever that learning journey looks like for you, but really leaning into those places that you feel could be weak and kind of building on those skills.
And that final D in bold is destination. If you have your eye on the prize, it's really helpful. So if you're going, I will never speak again, but one day I want to be a manager, you're like, well, do managers need to speak? Yes. Do they have to give presentations? Yes. Does that mean you can't ever speak again? No. So if you're going, okay, I have to learn to figure this out because it's part of my destination, then it kind of gives you like, okay, I'm in this room. Should I really be in this room?
Do I deserve to be in the room? And you're like, well, I one day want to be that leader of this. I should be in this room. I should be in this room and soaking up every minute. I should be in this room and asking a ton of questions. You kind of have a different perspective when you're in those places and you're feeling that way, knowing that's all part of the journey to get to where you want to go.
Yann Dang: It's kind of like that bigger why, right? Like that you could commit to a bigger vision of yourself that even in the here and now you're like, "Oh, I have lots of things to learn." A lot of the women that I coach, they have a mission of leaving a legacy with all of the women that are either in their life or watching them or people of color that they're like, "Oh, if she could make it, I can make it right." And oftentimes, if you can drop into that why for them, that meaningfulness, then all of these things don't seem so big, right?
It's kind of like I can show up and I'm showing up for me, but I'm also showing up for people who will come after me and people who are watching me. I just remember one time I did a big presentation after a big acquisition that we did. And I remember this French woman leader who I respected and regarded a lot, she was like, "You were up there. You said that the numbers that we have to meet in our sales, you are so inspiring." And there weren't any other women leaders. Like for her, that was sort of crystallized in her mind.
And oftentimes I think, you know, as you're going through it, that learning process and wanting to be that for somebody else, you also have to have compassion for yourself wherever you are at, right? And know that you're moving more towards that and people are going to show up differently because they had that example. Like just how we started, right? If you can see it, then you can be it, right? You see more of that.
So thank you so much for sharing all of this. I love the acronym. I think it's super impactful and useful for people to think about, especially when that cha-cha happens. But I also love the idea that imposter syndrome is not this terrible, scary disease, which I also talk about, right? It is actually some self-awareness, but we also wanna keep it in check. We don't want to overindulge in it and to give it like its own mind and take over how we show up. You know, it's good to be aware. You don't wanna be totally a person that's like, I don't know, these thoughts about like wavering confidence or unshakable confidence. I'm like, that's not a human person.
Like that's not like, that's like, you know, asking a child to behave all the time. Like that's just not true. So I like being able to talk about it in this way. And I think what you've shared with us today is really helpful in helping people take ownership over their visibility and their mindset around visibility. So thanks so much for being on the show. Any final words for women out there that are like, I want to like own my brand or my perception better? Any final thoughts?
Bernice Chao: Get started. It doesn't have to be perfect. You are your own best advocate. Definitely lean into that space. It may feel uncomfortable at first to talk about yourself, especially if you were not taught to do that growing up, to have that space for yourself. Find your rhythm in it.
I don't come out going, this is me. I kind of find my own subtle ways that I feel comfortable with it. So definitely find your space that you want to hold for your own visibility in a way that feels authentic to you and take a moment and look at the people that you follow or that you really respect in the industry. You can kind of see their different ways at it, what ways you like and what ways you don't. And so you can kind of get that inspiration from those out there.
Yann Dang: Thank you so much. Well, Bernice, if people want to get your book or connect with you, what are the ways that they can do that?
Bernice Chao: Well, absolutely. Feel free to reach out to me. I'm pretty easily Googleable. My name is Bernice Chao. It's on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram and my book is available pretty much everywhere.
It's the Visibility Mindset. And thank you again for having me.
Yann Dang: Have a great rest of your day. I will see you guys all next week. Thanks, Bernice. Bye. Thank you.
-- Thank you for being a part of The Balanced Leader community. We hope you found today's episode inspiring and actionable. For more resources and to connect with Yann, visit us at aspire-coaching.co. Until next time, keep leading with confidence and purpose.
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